LEAN Debian install: Exploring task selection menu

[Richard Owlett]

IIUC the goal of Debian designers might be summarized as maximizing
functionality for the broadest possible audience. And when there is a
large enough audience for "power tools" there are Debian Pure Blends.

That works very well *most* of the time.

But when it doesn't, it is VERY annoying ;{

Problems include:
1. Download bandwidth or data cap constraints.
{aggravated by treating "recommends" as "depends"}
2. Very large undesired packages {e.g. LibreOffice}
3. Applications cluttering menus for which one uses a better
alternative. {I prefer SeaMonkey over Firefox}


My proposed alternative is to leave unchecked all options on the
"Software Selection" menu[1] and create appropriate pseudo-packages to
be installed with "apt-get --no-install-recommends"


MY QUESTIONS

1. How do I find which packages are explicitly installed by checking a
specific box {primarily Mate}?
2. How do I search the repository for those packages that have a
priority “standard”? [2]
3. Especially when installing from an .iso on a flash drive, how do
I run apt-get before closing the installer?

TIA




[1] Figure 4.13 of
https://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/debian-handbook/sect.installation-steps.en.html
[2] 6.3.5.2. Selecting and Installing Software
https://www.debian.org/releases/jessie/i386/ch06s03.html.en

[Andrew Cater]

Standard advice from me: use the expert install (available under "Advanced
options", I think, from the standard netinst / DVD .iso image. Uncheck all
except standard install (and perhaps SSH server) - no X, no desktop
environment. That gives you a bare, text mode install with < 400 packages
in total. Build on from there. You can drop to a single user shell from the
installer to install extra packages if you really must - or you can just
reboot and use apt/apt-get to check and see what's involved at that point.
If you use wifi - you mght want to add at least any required firmware and
nmcli to get you started.[For myself, I always try to make the first
install be at the end of a cable to avoid wifi problems.]

It does need you to be command line capable. If you really have no
bandwidth, it might mean you need to buy DVDs to bootstrap the system. Be
aware, as you go, that an install from DVD media is only correct up to and
including the first boot - there will always be updates to install after
the first OS install.

Post by Richard Owlett
IIUC the goal of Debian designers might be summarized as maximizing
functionality for the broadest possible audience. And when there is a
large enough audience for "power tools" there are Debian Pure Blends.
That works very well *most* of the time.
But when it doesn't, it is VERY annoying ;{
1. Download bandwidth or data cap constraints.
{aggravated by treating "recommends" as "depends"}
2. Very large undesired packages {e.g. LibreOffice}
3. Applications cluttering menus for which one uses a better
alternative. {I prefer SeaMonkey over Firefox}
My proposed alternative is to leave unchecked all options on the
"Software Selection" menu[1] and create appropriate pseudo-packages to
be installed with "apt-get --no-install-recommends"
MY QUESTIONS
1. How do I find which packages are explicitly installed by checking a
specific box {primarily Mate}?
2. How do I search the repository for those packages that have a
priority “standard”? [2]
3. Especially when installing from an .iso on a flash drive, how do
I run apt-get before closing the installer?
TIA
[1] Figure 4.13 of
https://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/debian-handbook/sect.installation-steps.en.html
[2] 6.3.5.2. Selecting and Installing Software
https://www.debian.org/releases/jessie/i386/ch06s03.html.en

[David Wright]

Post by Richard Owlett
IIUC the goal of Debian designers might be summarized as maximizing
functionality for the broadest possible audience. And when there is a
large enough audience for "power tools" there are Debian Pure Blends.
That works very well *most* of the time.
But when it doesn't, it is VERY annoying ;{
1. Download bandwidth or data cap constraints.
{aggravated by treating "recommends" as "depends"}

I assume you're just talking about the installer again when you say this.

Post by Richard Owlett
2. Very large undesired packages {e.g. LibreOffice}

Don't install them, then.

Post by Richard Owlett
3. Applications cluttering menus for which one uses a better
alternative. {I prefer SeaMonkey over Firefox}

AFAICT you can define menus to contain whatever you like, can't you?

Post by Richard Owlett
My proposed alternative is to leave unchecked all options on the
"Software Selection" menu[1] and create appropriate pseudo-packages to
be installed with "apt-get --no-install-recommends"

If that floats your boat. Why not just remove the packages you can't abide
when the installer finishes its job, the job it was designed to do in a
simple and reliable manner.

Post by Richard Owlett
MY QUESTIONS
1. How do I find which packages are explicitly installed by checking a
specific box {primarily Mate}?

You add two small items to the hundreds of occasions on which you've
installed Debian. First, install with MATE checked. Second, install
without it checked. (Or in the opposite order.) Compare the output
of dpkg -l from the two installations.

Of course, you'll say that you only want to know which packages the
installer specifically demanded, and not those brought in as dependencies.
In which case, read the source of the d-i itself. As you run it so often,
it might be worth perusing in its own right, just for interest's sake.
After all---If retirement is not for learning, what use is it?

Post by Richard Owlett
2. How do I search the repository for those packages that have a
priority “standard”? [2]

Use dpkg-query with $Package and $Priority and grep for standard.
You'll need to set --admindir appropriately.

Post by Richard Owlett
3. Especially when installing from an .iso on a flash drive, how do
I run apt-get before closing the installer?

As I've had no need or desire to do that, I have no idea how the
regular apt-get would behave when run on a system that hasn't been
"finalised" (for want of a better term). AIUI many of the programs
that run in the d-i are hacked-about versions installed from udebs,
or wrapped up in the swiss-army penknife, busybox. Perhaps just be
patient and let the d-i "close".

Post by Richard Owlett
[1] Figure 4.13 of https://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/debian-handbook/sect.installation-steps.en.html
[2] 6.3.5.2. Selecting and Installing Software
https://www.debian.org/releases/jessie/i386/ch06s03.html.en

Cheers,
David.

[Greg Wooledge]

Post by David Wright

Post by Richard Owlett
2. How do I search the repository for those packages that have a
priority “standard”? [2]

Use dpkg-query with $Package and $Priority and grep for standard.
You'll need to set --admindir appropriately.

aptitude search '~pStandard'

[Richard Owlett]

Post by Greg Wooledge

Post by David Wright

Post by Richard Owlett
2. How do I search the repository for those packages that have a
priority “standard”? [2]

Use dpkg-query with $Package and $Priority and grep for standard.
You'll need to set --admindir appropriately.

aptitude search '~pStandard'

Thank you. That was what I needed. I can see myself using most of them.
Some the truncated description is tantalizing enough that I'll will
investigate them further.

[Richard Owlett]

Post by Richard Owlett

Post by Greg Wooledge

Post by Richard Owlett
2. How do I search the repository for those packages that have a
    priority “standard”? [2]

Use   dpkg-query   with $Package and $Priority and grep for standard.
You'll need to set --admindir appropriately.

aptitude search '~pStandard'

Thank you. That was what I needed. I can see myself using most of them.
Some the truncated description is tantalizing enough that I'll will
investigate them further.

The manpage
[https://manpages.debian.org/buster/aptitude/aptitude.8.en.html] makes
multiple references to "the aptitude reference manual" but gives no link.

Where do I find it?

[David]

Post by Richard Owlett
The manpage
[https://manpages.debian.org/buster/aptitude/aptitude.8.en.html] makes
multiple references to "the aptitude reference manual" but gives no link.
Where do I find it?

Under the Help menu when running aptitude interactively, or you can read
it directly from the text file
/usr/share/aptitude/README

[Richard Hector]

Post by David

Post by Richard Owlett
The manpage
[https://manpages.debian.org/buster/aptitude/aptitude.8.en.html] makes
multiple references to "the aptitude reference manual" but gives no link.
Where do I find it?

Under the Help menu when running aptitude interactively, or you can read
it directly from the text file
/usr/share/aptitude/README

Huh. That seems an odd location. I would have expected that in
/usr/share/doc/aptitude - but that has a link to the above.

Richard

[Richard Owlett]

Post by David

Post by Richard Owlett
The manpage
[https://manpages.debian.org/buster/aptitude/aptitude.8.en.html] makes
multiple references to "the aptitude reference manual" but gives no link.
Where do I find it?

Under the Help menu when running aptitude interactively, or you can read
it directly from the text file
/usr/share/aptitude/README

Thank you.
I had searched for something titled "aptitude reference manual" ;/
I found [https://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/aptitude/index.en.html]
which appears to be an HTML version of the "readme".

I find HTML easier to navigate than text files and I can reformat the
display to accommodate some vision problems.

[Andrei POPESCU]

Post by Richard Owlett
I had searched for something titled "aptitude reference manual" ;/
I found [https://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/aptitude/index.en.html] which
appears to be an HTML version of the "readme".
I find HTML easier to navigate than text files and I can reformat the
display to accommodate some vision problems.

apt show aptitude-doc-en

Kind regards,
Andrei

[David]

Post by Richard Owlett

Post by David

Post by Richard Owlett
The manpage
[https://manpages.debian.org/buster/aptitude/aptitude.8.en.html] makes
multiple references to "the aptitude reference manual" but gives no link.
Where do I find it?

Under the Help menu when running aptitude interactively, or you can read
it directly from the text file
/usr/share/aptitude/README

I had searched for something titled "aptitude reference manual" ;/
I found [https://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/aptitude/index.en.html]
which appears to be an HTML version of the "readme".
I find HTML easier to navigate than text files and I can reformat the
display to accommodate some vision problems.
apt show aptitude-doc-en

As Andrei hints, the HTML version that you prefer is also packaged
for Debian so you can install it locally by installing the package
aptitude-doc-en.

The plain text version displayed by the Help menu of the curses
version of aptitude is installed by the aptitude-common package.

[Brian]

Post by David Wright

Post by Richard Owlett
3. Especially when installing from an .iso on a flash drive, how do
I run apt-get before closing the installer?

As I've had no need or desire to do that, I have no idea how the
regular apt-get would behave when run on a system that hasn't been
"finalised" (for want of a better term). AIUI many of the programs
that run in the d-i are hacked-about versions installed from udebs,
or wrapped up in the swiss-army penknife, busybox. Perhaps just be
patient and let the d-i "close".

The OP is experienced with preseeding and is aware of late_command.
All he has to do is apply his knowledge.

[Richard Owlett]

Post by Brian

Post by David Wright

Post by Richard Owlett
3. Especially when installing from an .iso on a flash drive, how do
I run apt-get before closing the installer?

As I've had no need or desire to do that, I have no idea how the
regular apt-get would behave when run on a system that hasn't been
"finalised" (for want of a better term). AIUI many of the programs
that run in the d-i are hacked-about versions installed from udebs,
or wrapped up in the swiss-army penknife, busybox. Perhaps just be
patient and let the d-i "close".

The OP is experienced with preseeding and is aware of late_command.
All he has to do is apply his knowledge.

Have not used preseeding for more than a year.
Don't recall ever having used "late" command.
Quick look at docs doesn't suggest it will solve problem.
When I wake up will read more closely.

[Andrei POPESCU]

Post by Richard Owlett
1. Download bandwidth or data cap constraints.
{aggravated by treating "recommends" as "depends"}

If you are referring to package maintainers declaring Depends on other
packages where it should be just a Recommends, do note it is often a
side effect of users disabling automatic installation of Recommends and
then complaining about missing functionality.

Please do file bugs anyway if you are aware of such cases (Depends
instead of Recommends), even if it might end up as 'wontfix'.

Post by Richard Owlett
1. How do I find which packages are explicitly installed by checking a
specific box {primarily Mate}?

As far as I recall this was answered in great detail in the thread about
tasks.

Kind regards,
Andrei

[Brian]

Post by Andrei POPESCU

Post by Richard Owlett
1. Download bandwidth or data cap constraints.
{aggravated by treating "recommends" as "depends"}

If you are referring to package maintainers declaring Depends on other
packages where it should be just a Recommends, do note it is often a
side effect of users disabling automatic installation of Recommends and
then complaining about missing functionality.

I believe the OP is referring to debootstrap's inability to install only
Depends:.

[Richard Owlett]

Post by Brian

Post by Andrei POPESCU

Post by Richard Owlett
1. Download bandwidth or data cap constraints.
{aggravated by treating "recommends" as "depends"}

If you are referring to package maintainers declaring Depends on other
packages where it should be just a Recommends, do note it is often a
side effect of users disabling automatic installation of Recommends and
then complaining about missing functionality.

I believe the OP is referring to debootstrap's inability to install only
Depends:.

No. Apt and cousins allow not installing recommends. There was a recent
thread where someone stated that option not available when installing
the system. More when I wake up.

[Marco Möller]

Post by Richard Owlett

Post by Brian

Post by Andrei POPESCU

   1. Download bandwidth or data cap constraints.
      {aggravated by treating "recommends" as "depends"}

If you are referring to package maintainers declaring Depends on other
packages where it should be just a Recommends, do note it is often a
side effect of users disabling automatic installation of Recommends and
then complaining about missing functionality.

I believe the OP is referring to debootstrap's inability to install only
Depends:.

No. Apt and cousins allow not installing recommends. There was a recent
thread where someone stated that option not available when installing
the system. More when I wake up.

Maybe make a minimum install first, then change the global apt
configuration to always apply "--no-install-recommends" as the
predefined parameter if no other flag would be added by the user to the
apt command, and only afterwards enrich your installation by installing
the packages which you need.

You could call "tasksel" again, if you want to use the software bundle
selection menu which you have seen during the initial installation. You
should remind, that if in the tasksel menu deselecting all specifically
named Desktop Environments (Gnome, Xfce, KDE, ...) but still selecting
the top entry "Debian desktop environment" then a full blown Gnome
environment will be downloaded and installed.

You could also look out for package bundles with the name prefix
"task-". For instance "apt search task- | grep mate" will show you that
a bundle package "task-mate-desktop" exists. "apt show
task-mate-desktop" will show you the list of packages which this bundle
package will draw in. Among the listed packages there might appear other
bundles, therefore iterate with "apt show" through the listed package
names for getting ahead some idea of all packages which would become
installed.

Good Luck! Marco.

[Richard Owlett]

Post by Marco Möller

Post by Richard Owlett

Post by Brian

Post by Andrei POPESCU

   1. Download bandwidth or data cap constraints.
      {aggravated by treating "recommends" as "depends"}

If you are referring to package maintainers declaring Depends on other
packages where it should be just a Recommends, do note it is often a
side effect of users disabling automatic installation of Recommends and
then complaining about missing functionality.

I believe the OP is referring to debootstrap's inability to install only
Depends:.

No. Apt and cousins allow not installing recommends. There was a
recent thread where someone stated that option not available when
installing the system. More when I wake up.

Maybe make a minimum install first, then change the global apt
configuration to always apply "--no-install-recommends" as the
predefined parameter if no other flag would be added by the user to the
apt command, and only afterwards enrich your installation by installing
the packages which you need.

*ROFL* with MASSIVE *GRIN* ;/

In my original post I had phrased that as:>> My proposed alternative is
to leave unchecked all options on the

Post by Marco Möller

Post by Richard Owlett
"Software Selection" menu and create appropriate pseudo-packages
to be installed with "apt-get --no-install-recommends"

You could call "tasksel" again, if you want to use the software bundle
selection menu which you have seen during the initial installation.

I don't follow what you are trying to say there.

Post by Marco Möller
You
should remind, that if in the tasksel menu deselecting all specifically
named Desktop Environments (Gnome, Xfce, KDE, ...) but still selecting
the top entry "Debian desktop environment" then a full blown Gnome
environment will be downloaded and installed.

I discovered that long ago. I consider that a bug, but the Debian team
likely considers that a feature.

Post by Marco Möller
You could also look out for package bundles with the name prefix
"task-". For instance "apt search task- | grep mate" will show you that
a bundle package "task-mate-desktop" exists. "apt show
task-mate-desktop" will show you the list of packages which this bundle
package will draw in. Among the listed packages there might appear other
bundles, therefore iterate with "apt show" through the listed package
names for getting ahead some idea of all packages which would become
installed.

I think Greg has pointed me in the right direction when he suggested
" aptitude search '~pStandard' " to deal with another aspect of my
problem. Today's assignment is reading the user manual.

Thanks.

[David Wright]

Post by Richard Owlett

Post by Marco Möller

Post by Richard Owlett

Post by Brian

Post by Andrei POPESCU

   1. Download bandwidth or data cap constraints.
      {aggravated by treating "recommends" as "depends"}

If you are referring to package maintainers declaring Depends on other
packages where it should be just a Recommends, do note it is often a
side effect of users disabling automatic installation of Recommends and
then complaining about missing functionality.

I believe the OP is referring to debootstrap's inability to install only
Depends:.

No. Apt and cousins allow not installing recommends. There was
a recent thread where someone stated that option not available
when installing the system. More when I wake up.

Maybe make a minimum install first, then change the global apt
configuration to always apply "--no-install-recommends" as the
predefined parameter if no other flag would be added by the user
to the apt command, and only afterwards enrich your installation
by installing the packages which you need.

*ROFL* with MASSIVE *GRIN* ;/
In my original post I had phrased that as:>> My proposed alternative
is to leave unchecked all options on the

Post by Marco Möller

Post by Richard Owlett
"Software Selection" menu and create appropriate pseudo-packages
to be installed with "apt-get --no-install-recommends"

I take it you agree, ten.

Post by Richard Owlett

Post by Marco Möller
You could call "tasksel" again, if you want to use the software
bundle selection menu which you have seen during the initial
installation.

I don't follow what you are trying to say there.

In words of several syllables, you could call "tasksel" again:

$ tasksel --list-tasks
u desktop Debian desktop environment
u gnome-desktop GNOME
u xfce-desktop Xfce
u kde-desktop KDE Plasma
u cinnamon-desktop Cinnamon
u mate-desktop MATE
u lxde-desktop LXDE
u lxqt-desktop LXQt
u web-server web server
i print-server print server
i ssh-server SSH server
u laptop laptop
$

… if you want to use the software bundle selection menu
(which you have seen during the initial installation):

┌───────────────────────────┤ [!] Software selection ├────────────────────────────┐
│ │
│ At the moment, only the core of the system is installed. To tune the system │
│ to your needs, you can choose to install one or more of the following │
│ predefined collections of software. │
│ │
│ Choose software to install: │
│ │
│ [ ] Debian desktop environment │
│ [ ] ... GNOME │
│ [ ] ... Xfce │
│ [ ] ... KDE │
│ [ ] ... Cinnamon │
│ [ ] ... MATE │
│ [ ] ... LXDE │
│ [ ] web server │
│ [*] print server │
│ [*] SSH server │
│ [*] standard system utilities │
│ │
│ <Continue> │
│ │
└─────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘

So I might call tasksel to install a web server if I forgot to check
it when I ran the installer.

Post by Richard Owlett

Post by Marco Möller
You should remind, that if in the tasksel menu deselecting all
specifically named Desktop Environments (Gnome, Xfce, KDE, ...)
but still selecting the top entry "Debian desktop environment"
then a full blown Gnome environment will be downloaded and
installed.

I discovered that long ago. I consider that a bug, but the Debian team
likely considers that a feature.

So what would your version of an installer do when presented with:

│ [*] Debian desktop environment │
│ [ ] ... GNOME │
│ [ ] ... Xfce │
│ [ ] ... KDE │
│ [ ] ... Cinnamon │
│ [ ] ... MATE │
│ [ ] ... LXDE │

Post by Richard Owlett

Post by Marco Möller
You could also look out for package bundles with the name prefix
"task-". For instance "apt search task- | grep mate" will show you
that a bundle package "task-mate-desktop" exists. "apt show
task-mate-desktop" will show you the list of packages which this
bundle package will draw in. Among the listed packages there might
appear other bundles, therefore iterate with "apt show" through
the listed package names for getting ahead some idea of all
packages which would become installed.

I think Greg has pointed me in the right direction when he suggested
" aptitude search '~pStandard' " to deal with another aspect of my
problem. Today's assignment is reading the user manual.

Cheers,
David.

[Marco Möller]

Post by David Wright

Post by Richard Owlett

Post by Marco Möller

Post by Richard Owlett

Post by Brian

Post by Andrei POPESCU

   1. Download bandwidth or data cap constraints.
      {aggravated by treating "recommends" as "depends"}

If you are referring to package maintainers declaring Depends on other
packages where it should be just a Recommends, do note it is often a
side effect of users disabling automatic installation of Recommends and
then complaining about missing functionality.

I believe the OP is referring to debootstrap's inability to install only
Depends:.

No. Apt and cousins allow not installing recommends. There was
a recent thread where someone stated that option not available
when installing the system. More when I wake up.

Maybe make a minimum install first, then change the global apt
configuration to always apply "--no-install-recommends" as the
predefined parameter if no other flag would be added by the user
to the apt command, and only afterwards enrich your installation
by installing the packages which you need.

*ROFL* with MASSIVE *GRIN* ;/
In my original post I had phrased that as:>> My proposed alternative
is to leave unchecked all options on the

Post by Marco Möller

Post by Richard Owlett
"Software Selection" menu and create appropriate pseudo-packages
to be installed with "apt-get --no-install-recommends"

I take it you agree, ten.

Post by Richard Owlett

Post by Marco Möller
You could call "tasksel" again, if you want to use the software
bundle selection menu which you have seen during the initial
installation.

I don't follow what you are trying to say there.

$ tasksel --list-tasks
u desktop Debian desktop environment
u gnome-desktop GNOME
u xfce-desktop Xfce
u kde-desktop KDE Plasma
u cinnamon-desktop Cinnamon
u mate-desktop MATE
u lxde-desktop LXDE
u lxqt-desktop LXQt
u web-server web server
i print-server print server
i ssh-server SSH server
u laptop laptop
$
… if you want to use the software bundle selection menu
┌───────────────────────────┤ [!] Software selection ├────────────────────────────┐
│ │
│ At the moment, only the core of the system is installed. To tune the system │
│ to your needs, you can choose to install one or more of the following │
│ predefined collections of software. │
│ │
│ Choose software to install: │
│ │
│ [ ] Debian desktop environment │
│ [ ] ... GNOME │
│ [ ] ... Xfce │
│ [ ] ... KDE │
│ [ ] ... Cinnamon │
│ [ ] ... MATE │
│ [ ] ... LXDE │
│ [ ] web server │
│ [*] print server │
│ [*] SSH server │
│ [*] standard system utilities │
│ │
│ <Continue> │
│ │
└─────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘
So I might call tasksel to install a web server if I forgot to check
it when I ran the installer.

Post by Richard Owlett

Post by Marco Möller
You should remind, that if in the tasksel menu deselecting all
specifically named Desktop Environments (Gnome, Xfce, KDE, ...)
but still selecting the top entry "Debian desktop environment"
then a full blown Gnome environment will be downloaded and
installed.

I discovered that long ago. I consider that a bug, but the Debian team
likely considers that a feature.

│ [*] Debian desktop environment │
│ [ ] ... GNOME │
│ [ ] ... Xfce │
│ [ ] ... KDE │
│ [ ] ... Cinnamon │
│ [ ] ... MATE │
│ [ ] ... LXDE │

Post by Richard Owlett

Post by Marco Möller
You could also look out for package bundles with the name prefix
"task-". For instance "apt search task- | grep mate" will show you
that a bundle package "task-mate-desktop" exists. "apt show
task-mate-desktop" will show you the list of packages which this
bundle package will draw in. Among the listed packages there might
appear other bundles, therefore iterate with "apt show" through
the listed package names for getting ahead some idea of all
packages which would become installed.

I think Greg has pointed me in the right direction when he suggested
" aptitude search '~pStandard' " to deal with another aspect of my
problem. Today's assignment is reading the user manual.

Cheers,
David.
│ [*] Debian desktop environment │
│ [ ] ... GNOME │
│ [ ] ... Xfce │
│ [ ] ... KDE │
│ [ ] ... Cinnamon │
│ [ ] ... MATE │
│ [ ] ... LXDE │

I agree with Richard's criticism and would suggest to not present that
first line "Debian desktop environment" at all, because it is redundant
with the second line "... GNOME". If someone deselects the second line
because no wanting GNOME, but does not image what the first line might
contain, then he will be surprised that GNOME became anyway fully
installed after the first line was still selected, a behaviour which
makes no sense after the second line was explicitly not selected. It is
especially annoying if you did this selection "mistake" on slow or
expensive bandwidth. When I first time did this mistake, I thought, hey,
maybe for a desktop they will install already something like network
manager and other network managing tools or a tiny collection of
enhanced editors like vim instead of vi only, maybe some other cute
utilities. But I ended up with looong time downloading and installing a
full blown GNOME which I actually wanted to avoid and therefore did
unselect the second line initially.
Best regards, Marco.

[Richard Owlett]

Post by Marco Möller
I agree with Richard's criticism and would suggest to not present that
first line "Debian desktop environment" at all, because it is redundant
with the second line "... GNOME". If someone deselects the second line
because no wanting GNOME, but does not image what the first line might
contain, then he will be surprised that GNOME became anyway fully
installed after the first line was still selected, a behaviour which
makes no sense after the second line was explicitly not selected. It is
especially annoying if you did this selection "mistake" on slow or
expensive bandwidth. When I first time did this mistake, I thought, hey,
maybe for a desktop they will install already something like network
manager and other network managing tools or a tiny collection of
enhanced editors like vim instead of vi only, maybe some other cute
utilities. But I ended up with looong time downloading and installing a
full blown GNOME which I actually wanted to avoid and therefore did
unselect the second line initially.

Yepp ;/

[Michael Stone]

Post by Marco Möller
I agree with Richard's criticism and would suggest to not present that
first line "Debian desktop environment" at all, because it is
redundant with the second line "... GNOME". If someone deselects the
second line because no wanting GNOME, but does not image what the
first line might contain, then he will be surprised that GNOME became
anyway fully installed after the first line was still selected, a
behaviour which makes no sense after the second line was explicitly
not selected. It is especially annoying if you did this selection
"mistake" on slow or expensive bandwidth. When I first time did this
mistake, I thought, hey, maybe for a desktop they will install already
something like network manager and other network managing tools or a
tiny collection of enhanced editors like vim instead of vi only, maybe
some other cute utilities. But I ended up with looong time downloading
and installing a full blown GNOME which I actually wanted to avoid and
therefore did unselect the second line initially.

People are overthinking this. If you want more control, just skip the
software selection screen altogether. If you're going to nit-pick over
what gets installed when using it, you aren't the target audience.

[Brian]

Post by Michael Stone

Post by Marco Möller
I agree with Richard's criticism and would suggest to not present that
first line "Debian desktop environment" at all, because it is redundant
with the second line "... GNOME". If someone deselects the second line
because no wanting GNOME, but does not image what the first line might
contain, then he will be surprised that GNOME became anyway fully
installed after the first line was still selected, a behaviour which
makes no sense after the second line was explicitly not selected. It is
especially annoying if you did this selection "mistake" on slow or
expensive bandwidth. When I first time did this mistake, I thought, hey,
maybe for a desktop they will install already something like network
manager and other network managing tools or a tiny collection of
enhanced editors like vim instead of vi only, maybe some other cute
utilities. But I ended up with looong time downloading and installing a
full blown GNOME which I actually wanted to avoid and therefore did
unselect the second line initially.

People are overthinking this. If you want more control, just skip the
software selection screen altogether. If you're going to nit-pick over what
gets installed when using it, you aren't the target audience.

I am unsure that really addresses Marco Möller's point. What he and
other users fail to appreciate is that "Debian desktop environment"
means "Debian default desktop environment". The issue is that what the
default is is not specified. It could, of course, be anything. Maybe
the user does not want this particular distribution's default. I do not
think this is nit-picking.

I do not agree with Marco Möller that the first line is redundant, but,
if it specified that the Debian desktop environment was Xfce, it is
possible it would give some clarity. OTOH, if it was decided not to have
a default desktop, the first line could go.

[Michael Stone]

Post by Brian

Post by Michael Stone
People are overthinking this. If you want more control, just skip the
software selection screen altogether. If you're going to nit-pick over what
gets installed when using it, you aren't the target audience.

I am unsure that really addresses Marco Möller's point. What he and
other users fail to appreciate is that "Debian desktop environment"
means "Debian default desktop environment". The issue is that what the
default is is not specified. It could, of course, be anything. Maybe
the user does not want this particular distribution's default. I do not
think this is nit-picking.

Maybe not, but my point is that you use the task selections to get a
bunch of software, and it's going to err on the side of giving you too
much. If getting stuff you don't want is not acceptable, just don't use
the tasks because they're the wrong tool for whatever you're doing. If
getting stuff you don't want is acceptable, then it really doesn't
matter if you get an extra gnome, right?

[David Wright]

[…]

Post by Marco Möller

Post by David Wright

Post by Richard Owlett

Post by Marco Möller
You should remind, that if in the tasksel menu deselecting all
specifically named Desktop Environments (Gnome, Xfce, KDE, ...)
but still selecting the top entry "Debian desktop environment"
then a full blown Gnome environment will be downloaded and
installed.

I discovered that long ago. I consider that a bug, but the Debian team
likely considers that a feature.

│ [*] Debian desktop environment │
│ [ ] ... GNOME │
│ [ ] ... Xfce │
│ [ ] ... KDE │
│ [ ] ... Cinnamon │
│ [ ] ... MATE │
│ [ ] ... LXDE │

I agree with Richard's criticism and would suggest to not present that
first line "Debian desktop environment" at all, because it is
redundant with the second line "... GNOME". If someone deselects the
second line because no wanting GNOME, but does not imag[in]e what the
first line might contain, then he will be surprised that GNOME became
anyway fully installed after the first line was still selected, a
behaviour which makes no sense after the second line was explicitly
not selected.

OTOH it makes a lot of sense to a user, new to linux, who knows they
want to try KDE as their desktop, say, because they've read about it
somewhere. If they click on KDE, that's what they get. Were the d-i
to have already selected GNOME when this person clicked on KDE, they
would get both.

Or, if you treat the list like a ballot, the d-i keeps the default up
its sleeve (for it has to install *some* DE), but it doesn't try to
influence the user's choice unfairly.

You can argue this any way you like. Hardly a "bug".

Post by Marco Möller
It is especially annoying if you did this selection
"mistake" on slow or expensive bandwidth. When I first time did this
mistake, I thought, hey, maybe for a desktop they will install already
something like network manager and other network managing tools or a
tiny collection of enhanced editors like vim instead of vi only, maybe
some other cute utilities.

Eh?

Post by Marco Möller
But I ended up with looong time downloading
and installing a full blown GNOME which I actually wanted to avoid

If you're *that* concerned, try reading the Installation Guide first:

NOTE
The “Desktop environment” task will install a graphical desktop environment.
By default, debian-installer installs the Gnome desktop environment. It is
possible to interactively select a different desktop environment during the instal-
lation. It is also possible to install multiple desktops, but some combinations of
desktop may not be co-installable.

Post by Marco Möller
and
therefore did unselect the second line initially.

Are you saying that the second line (GNOME) was selected by default?

(Note that my two screen shots are taken from different point
releases: the (snipped) tasksel output was copied just today,
whereas the screen extract quoted above is 10 months old, being
from the 10.2 d-i.)

Cheers,
David.

[Fabrice BAUZAC-STEHLY]

Post by Marco Möller

Post by David Wright
│ [*] Debian desktop environment │
│ [ ] ... GNOME │
│ [ ] ... Xfce │
│ [ ] ... KDE │
│ [ ] ... Cinnamon │
│ [ ] ... MATE │
│ [ ] ... LXDE │

I agree with Richard's criticism and would suggest to not present that
first line "Debian desktop environment" at all, because it is
redundant with the second line "... GNOME". If someone deselects the
second line because no wanting GNOME, but does not image what the
first line might contain, then he will be surprised that GNOME became
anyway fully installed after the first line was still selected, a
behaviour which makes no sense after the second line was explicitly
not selected. It is especially annoying if you did this selection
"mistake" on slow or expensive bandwidth. When I first time did this
mistake, I thought, hey, maybe for a desktop they will install already
something like network manager and other network managing tools or a
tiny collection of enhanced editors like vim instead of vi only, maybe
some other cute utilities. But I ended up with looong time downloading
and installing a full blown GNOME which I actually wanted to avoid and
therefore did unselect the second line initially.
Best regards, Marco.

I've also been bitten by this. I think it is a UI issue, the options
are ambiguous. Would it be possible to simply change the dialog box as
follows? --

Debian desktop environments:
[ ] ... GNOME (default)
[ ] ... Xfce
[ ] ... KDE
[ ] ... Cinnamon
[ ] ... MATE
[ ] ... LXDE

--
Fabrice BAUZAC-STEHLY
PGP 015AE9B25DCB0511D200A75DE5674DEA514C891D

[Andrei POPESCU]

Post by Fabrice BAUZAC-STEHLY
I've also been bitten by this. I think it is a UI issue, the options
are ambiguous. Would it be possible to simply change the dialog box as
follows? --
[ ] ... GNOME (default)
[ ] ... Xfce
[ ] ... KDE
[ ] ... Cinnamon
[ ] ... MATE
[ ] ... LXDE

You could contact debian-boot or file a bug against debian-installer (or
tasksel?).

Providing a patch increases the chances of having the change accepted.

Kind regards,
Andrei

[Brian]

Post by Andrei POPESCU

Post by Fabrice BAUZAC-STEHLY
I've also been bitten by this. I think it is a UI issue, the options
are ambiguous. Would it be possible to simply change the dialog box as
follows? --
[ ] ... GNOME (default)
[ ] ... Xfce
[ ] ... KDE
[ ] ... Cinnamon
[ ] ... MATE
[ ] ... LXDE

You could contact debian-boot or file a bug against debian-installer (or
tasksel?).
Providing a patch increases the chances of having the change accepted.

What is the purpose of "(default)" as part of the Gnome entry?

[mick crane]

Post by Brian

Post by Andrei POPESCU

Post by Fabrice BAUZAC-STEHLY
I've also been bitten by this. I think it is a UI issue, the options
are ambiguous. Would it be possible to simply change the dialog box as
follows? --
[ ] ... GNOME (default)
[ ] ... Xfce
[ ] ... KDE
[ ] ... Cinnamon
[ ] ... MATE
[ ] ... LXDE

You could contact debian-boot or file a bug against debian-installer (or
tasksel?).
Providing a patch increases the chances of having the change accepted.

What is the purpose of "(default)" as part of the Gnome entry?

I wondered that, "default" is usually what happens if you just press
enter given a YES, no
choice. The dialogue should probably be something like
"If you don't select an alternative GNOME will be installed"

[Brian]

Post by Brian

Post by Andrei POPESCU

Post by Fabrice BAUZAC-STEHLY
I've also been bitten by this. I think it is a UI issue, the options
are ambiguous. Would it be possible to simply change the dialog box as
follows? --
[ ] ... GNOME (default)
[ ] ... Xfce
[ ] ... KDE
[ ] ... Cinnamon
[ ] ... MATE
[ ] ... LXDE

You could contact debian-boot or file a bug against debian-installer (or
tasksel?).
Providing a patch increases the chances of having the change accepted.

What is the purpose of "(default)" as part of the Gnome entry?

I wondered that, "default" is usually what happens if you just press enter
given a YES, no
choice. The dialogue should probably be something like
"If you don't select an alternative GNOME will be installed"

What would happen if a user did not want Gnome? Note that the present
dialog caters for this situation.

[mick crane]

Post by Brian

Post by Brian

Post by Andrei POPESCU

Post by Fabrice BAUZAC-STEHLY
I've also been bitten by this. I think it is a UI issue, the options
are ambiguous. Would it be possible to simply change the dialog box as
follows? --
[ ] ... GNOME (default)
[ ] ... Xfce
[ ] ... KDE
[ ] ... Cinnamon
[ ] ... MATE
[ ] ... LXDE

You could contact debian-boot or file a bug against debian-installer (or
tasksel?).
Providing a patch increases the chances of having the change accepted.

What is the purpose of "(default)" as part of the Gnome entry?

I wondered that, "default" is usually what happens if you just press enter
given a YES, no
choice. The dialogue should probably be something like
"If you don't select an alternative GNOME will be installed"

What would happen if a user did not want Gnome? Note that the present
dialog caters for this situation.

Is the "Debian desktop environment" Gnome plus other things ? In which
case the way it is makes sense.

[David Wright]

Post by mick crane

Post by Brian

Post by Brian

Post by Andrei POPESCU

Post by Fabrice BAUZAC-STEHLY
I've also been bitten by this. I think it is a UI issue, the options
are ambiguous. Would it be possible to simply change the dialog box as
follows? --
[ ] ... GNOME (default)
[ ] ... Xfce
[ ] ... KDE
[ ] ... Cinnamon
[ ] ... MATE
[ ] ... LXDE

You could contact debian-boot or file a bug against debian-installer (or
tasksel?).
Providing a patch increases the chances of having the change accepted.

What is the purpose of "(default)" as part of the Gnome entry?

I wondered that, "default" is usually what happens if you just press enter
given a YES, no
choice. The dialogue should probably be something like
"If you don't select an alternative GNOME will be installed"

What would happen if a user did not want Gnome? Note that the present
dialog caters for this situation.

Is the "Debian desktop environment" Gnome plus other things ? In which
case the way it is makes sense.

But it doesn't make sense to some, hence this discussion.

To make sense of Marco's suggestion, it would require a Yes/No
radio button for *any* DE installation. Yes would be preselected.

There would also be a series of checkboxes, with GNOME preselected.
Other DEs could be checked/unchecked if desired.

When No is pressed, the checkboxes would become greyed, but not lose
their selection status (so that pressing No & Yes has no effect).

I'm not familiar enough with curses to know how to implement this.

Cheers,
David.

[Brian]

Post by David Wright

Post by mick crane

Post by Brian

Post by Brian

Post by Andrei POPESCU

Post by Fabrice BAUZAC-STEHLY
I've also been bitten by this. I think it is a UI issue, the options
are ambiguous. Would it be possible to simply change the dialog box as
follows? --
[ ] ... GNOME (default)
[ ] ... Xfce
[ ] ... KDE
[ ] ... Cinnamon
[ ] ... MATE
[ ] ... LXDE

You could contact debian-boot or file a bug against debian-installer
(or
tasksel?).
Providing a patch increases the chances of having the change accepted.

What is the purpose of "(default)" as part of the Gnome entry?

I wondered that, "default" is usually what happens if you just press enter
given a YES, no
choice. The dialogue should probably be something like
"If you don't select an alternative GNOME will be installed"

What would happen if a user did not want Gnome? Note that the present
dialog caters for this situation.

Is the "Debian desktop environment" Gnome plus other things ? In which
case the way it is makes sense.

But it doesn't make sense to some, hence this discussion.

That is only because they do not think it through.

"I do not want Debian desktop environment" they say. That's fine; reject
having it; untick it. Now nothing is selected. That's ok. A user now gets
nothing. Who would argue with that action if that is what is required?

But "I want Mate" is the next request. Ok, tick it and that is what the
user will get. Where's the problem?

[Brian]

Post by Brian

Post by Brian

Post by Andrei POPESCU

Post by Fabrice BAUZAC-STEHLY
I've also been bitten by this. I think it is a UI issue, the options
are ambiguous. Would it be possible to simply change the dialog box as
follows? --
[ ] ... GNOME (default)
[ ] ... Xfce
[ ] ... KDE
[ ] ... Cinnamon
[ ] ... MATE
[ ] ... LXDE

You could contact debian-boot or file a bug against debian-installer (or
tasksel?).
Providing a patch increases the chances of having the change accepted.

What is the purpose of "(default)" as part of the Gnome entry?

I wondered that, "default" is usually what happens if you just press enter
given a YES, no
choice. The dialogue should probably be something like
"If you don't select an alternative GNOME will be installed"

What would happen if a user did not want Gnome? Note that the present
dialog caters for this situation.

Is the "Debian desktop environment" Gnome plus other things ? In which case
the way it is makes sense.

Debian desktop environment gives a user what the present default desktop
is. At the present, it gives exactly the same as choosing "Gnome.

If the default desktop was Xfce, a user would get Xfce with Debian desktop
environment. This would be the same as choosing "Xfce".

[Greg Wooledge]

Is the "Debian desktop environment" Gnome plus other things ? In which case
the way it is makes sense.

My understanding, flawed as it may be, is that the installer doesn't
actually KNOW what the default will be, at the time it draws up the
menu. A user who selects "Debian desktop" gets whatever the default
happens to be for the particular installer image that they've booted
up. With the official netinst/DVD-1 images, that default happens to
be GNOME. But with some of the "Live" images, or the older CD-sized
images (no longer supported), the default could be something else.

I don't have any strong opinions about this, but I wouldn't complain if
"Debian desktop environment" (the mystery choice) would just go away.
Let users select GNOME or KDE or whatever they actually want.

If we're going to complain about the installer, the very top of my list
would be "put the default sources.list lines in place, commented out,
even when there's no Internet connection during the install". Users
who come into IRC without a working sources.list file because they
installed with the official image on a machine with proprietary wifi
always have to be hand-held through getting the correct lines into
sources.list so that apt(-get) will work.

[Brian]

Post by Greg Wooledge

Is the "Debian desktop environment" Gnome plus other things ? In which case
the way it is makes sense.

My understanding, flawed as it may be, is that the installer doesn't
actually KNOW what the default will be, at the time it draws up the
menu. A user who selects "Debian desktop" gets whatever the default
happens to be for the particular installer image that they've booted
up. With the official netinst/DVD-1 images, that default happens to
be GNOME. But with some of the "Live" images, or the older CD-sized
images (no longer supported), the default could be something else.

The Debian desktop environment installs task-desktop. This package
recommends desktop task packages. task-gnome-desktop is the first one
listed, so it will be the one installed. In that sense, the installer
does know what the default is.

Post by Greg Wooledge
I don't have any strong opinions about this, but I wouldn't complain if
"Debian desktop environment" (the mystery choice) would just go away.
Let users select GNOME or KDE or whatever they actually want.

Suppose a user installs with base-installer/install-recommends set to
false. With the Debian desktop environment being the only option ticked,
a user would not install task-gnome-desktop but would get xorg and
enough software to use X. The suggested scheme would not cater for this.

[Fabrice BAUZAC-STEHLY]

Post by Brian
The Debian desktop environment installs task-desktop. This package
recommends desktop task packages. task-gnome-desktop is the first one
listed, so it will be the one installed. In that sense, the installer
does know what the default is.
Suppose a user installs with base-installer/install-recommends set to
false. With the Debian desktop environment being the only option ticked,
a user would not install task-gnome-desktop but would get xorg and
enough software to use X. The suggested scheme would not cater for this.

When during a Debian install a random user gets in front of the tasksel
dialog, they probably don't know about this complex behaviour. I think
we should make this dialog less ambiguous to let users know what boxes
to check according to what they want.

Do you think the behaviour "without Recommends" should be an option
presented to the user?

--
Fabrice BAUZAC-STEHLY
PGP 015AE9B25DCB0511D200A75DE5674DEA514C891D

[Brian]

Post by Fabrice BAUZAC-STEHLY

Post by Brian
The Debian desktop environment installs task-desktop. This package
recommends desktop task packages. task-gnome-desktop is the first one
listed, so it will be the one installed. In that sense, the installer
does know what the default is.
Suppose a user installs with base-installer/install-recommends set to
false. With the Debian desktop environment being the only option ticked,
a user would not install task-gnome-desktop but would get xorg and
enough software to use X. The suggested scheme would not cater for this.

When during a Debian install a random user gets in front of the tasksel
dialog, they probably don't know about this complex behaviour. I think
we should make this dialog less ambiguous to let users know what boxes
to check according to what they want.

A user sees a dialog with only only Debian desktop environment selected.
Activating this gets him what is displayed. Nothing ambiguous there.

A user deselects the only ticked entry and activates the choice. I think
we can agree that a desktop is not installed.

Another user deselects the only ticked entry and ticks MATE instead. He
expects MATE to be installed. Where's the ambiguity?

Post by Fabrice BAUZAC-STEHLY
Do you think the behaviour "without Recommends" should be an option
presented to the user?

No.

[David Wright]

Post by Fabrice BAUZAC-STEHLY

Post by Brian
The Debian desktop environment installs task-desktop. This package
recommends desktop task packages. task-gnome-desktop is the first one
listed, so it will be the one installed. In that sense, the installer
does know what the default is.
Suppose a user installs with base-installer/install-recommends set to
false. With the Debian desktop environment being the only option ticked,
a user would not install task-gnome-desktop but would get xorg and
enough software to use X. The suggested scheme would not cater for this.

When during a Debian install a random user gets in front of the tasksel
dialog, they probably don't know about this complex behaviour. I think
we should make this dialog less ambiguous to let users know what boxes
to check according to what they want.
Do you think the behaviour "without Recommends" should be an option
presented to the user?

No. On the basis of little evidence, I think naive users need software
installed that offers its full functionality. The more sophisticated
users who yearn after simplicity can easily find out how to prevent
Recommends from being installed.

But also bear in mind that not so many people have actually run the
debian-installer itself without Recommended packages being installed.
I certainly never have (I don't know how to do it), even though at
one time I ran an already installed system in that manner. Perhaps
a "show of hands" is in order. Is it pain-free?

Cheers,
David.

[Felix Miata]

Post by David Wright
But also bear in mind that not so many people have actually run the
debian-installer itself without Recommended packages being installed.
I certainly never have (I don't know how to do it), even though at
one time I ran an already installed system in that manner. Perhaps
a "show of hands" is in order. Is it pain-free?

This the tail of basically the same installer cmdline I've been using for Debian
for several years, Bullseye the last:
netcfg/get_nameservers=8.8.4.4 netcfg/confirm_static=true tasks=standard
base-installer/install-recommends=false GRUB_DISABLE_OS_PROBER=true

[Andrei POPESCU]

Post by David Wright

Post by Fabrice BAUZAC-STEHLY
Do you think the behaviour "without Recommends" should be an option
presented to the user?

No. On the basis of little evidence, I think naive users need software
installed that offers its full functionality. The more sophisticated
users who yearn after simplicity can easily find out how to prevent
Recommends from being installed.

+1

Post by David Wright
But also bear in mind that not so many people have actually run the
debian-installer itself without Recommended packages being installed.
I certainly never have (I don't know how to do it), even though at
one time I ran an already installed system in that manner. Perhaps
a "show of hands" is in order. Is it pain-free?

For installs small enough to benefit from this I generally use
debootstrap/mmdebstrap.

Kind regards,
Andrei

[Richard Owlett]

Post by David Wright

Post by Fabrice BAUZAC-STEHLY

Post by Brian
The Debian desktop environment installs task-desktop. This package
recommends desktop task packages. task-gnome-desktop is the first one
listed, so it will be the one installed. In that sense, the installer
does know what the default is.
Suppose a user installs with base-installer/install-recommends set to
false. With the Debian desktop environment being the only option ticked,
a user would not install task-gnome-desktop but would get xorg and
enough software to use X. The suggested scheme would not cater for this.

When during a Debian install a random user gets in front of the tasksel
dialog, they probably don't know about this complex behaviour. I think
we should make this dialog less ambiguous to let users know what boxes
to check according to what they want.
Do you think the behaviour "without Recommends" should be an option
presented to the user?

No. On the basis of little evidence, I think naive users need software
installed that offers its full functionality.

Agreed. Where the menu says "Debian desktop environment" I would:
1. remove the check-box.
2. rephrase it as "Chose a Debian desktop environment".
3. add a default check by GNOME.

Post by David Wright
The more sophisticated
users who yearn after simplicity can easily find out how to prevent
Recommends from being installed.

"easily" ???
Probably after first time you have success ;/

Post by David Wright
But also bear in mind that not so many people have actually run the
debian-installer itself without Recommended packages being installed.
I certainly never have (I don't know how to do it), even though at
one time I ran an already installed system in that manner. Perhaps
a "show of hands" is in order. Is it pain-free?
Cheers,
David.

[r***@gmail.com]

Post by Richard Owlett
1. remove the check-box.
2. rephrase it as "Chose a Debian desktop environment".
3. add a default check by GNOME.

+1 -- that seems much clearer to me

(Of course, I would put the default check by KDE ;-)

[Richard Owlett]

Post by r***@gmail.com

Post by Richard Owlett
1. remove the check-box.
2. rephrase it as "Chose a Debian desktop environment".
3. add a default check by GNOME.

+1 -- that seems much clearer to me
(Of course, I would put the default check by KDE ;-)

If I had my "druthers" I'd put it by Mate.
But there are some windmills that I don't tilt with ;/

[Brian]

Post by r***@gmail.com

Post by Richard Owlett
1. remove the check-box.

A user now cannot install task-desktop alone. In other words, he
would be unable to install just X using tasksel.

Post by r***@gmail.com

Post by Richard Owlett
2. rephrase it as "Chose a Debian desktop environment".

The removed option is not about installing *a* Debian desktop
environment. It is about installing Debian desktop environment;
that is, installlng task-desktop. This proposal completely alters
the meaning of the present text and works against the purpose of
this portion the menu.

Post by r***@gmail.com

Post by Richard Owlett
3. add a default check by GNOME.

Suggested and countered in a number of previous posts.

Post by r***@gmail.com
+1 -- that seems much clearer to me

It would be useful to know what needs clarifying.

[David Wright]

Post by Richard Owlett

Post by David Wright

Post by Fabrice BAUZAC-STEHLY

Post by Brian
The Debian desktop environment installs task-desktop. This package
recommends desktop task packages. task-gnome-desktop is the first one
listed, so it will be the one installed. In that sense, the installer
does know what the default is.
Suppose a user installs with base-installer/install-recommends set to
false. With the Debian desktop environment being the only option ticked,
a user would not install task-gnome-desktop but would get xorg and
enough software to use X. The suggested scheme would not cater for this.

When during a Debian install a random user gets in front of the tasksel
dialog, they probably don't know about this complex behaviour. I think
we should make this dialog less ambiguous to let users know what boxes
to check according to what they want.
Do you think the behaviour "without Recommends" should be an option
presented to the user?

No. On the basis of little evidence, I think naive users need software
installed that offers its full functionality.

1. remove the check-box.
2. rephrase it as "Cho[o]se a Debian desktop environment".

Without considering Brian's point as to the wisdom of (1),
(2) doesn't allow for zero, or two upwards. (IOW we have a
set of checkboxes, not radio buttons.

Post by Richard Owlett
3. add a default check by GNOME.

Post by David Wright
The more sophisticated
users who yearn after simplicity can easily find out how to prevent
Recommends from being installed.

"easily" ???
Probably after first time you have success ;/

I recall your difficulty back in October, but that was just
accidentally missing out the "install" command. For others, the first
hit for "recommends" in man apt-get is:

--no-install-recommends
Do not consider recommended packages as a dependency for
installing. Configuration Item: APT::Install-Recommends

which covers the command line method and the configuration file method.

Post by Richard Owlett

Post by David Wright
But also bear in mind that not so many people have actually run the
debian-installer itself without Recommended packages being installed.
I certainly never have (I don't know how to do it), even though at
one time I ran an already installed system in that manner. Perhaps
a "show of hands" is in order. Is it pain-free?

Felix just reminded me of a paragraph that I probably read about ten
years ago and promptly forgot about, as it ends with "This option
should therefore only be used by very experienced users."
That statement might answer my last question.

Cheers,
David.

[Marco Möller]

   1. remove the check-box.
   2. rephrase it as "Chose a Debian desktop environment".
   3. add a default check by GNOME.

YES, Exactly this!
Best regards, Marco.

[Brian]

Post by Marco Möller

   1. remove the check-box.
   2. rephrase it as "Chose a Debian desktop environment".
   3. add a default check by GNOME.

YES, Exactly this!

That's it? You and Richard Owlett would jettison the ability of a user
to install task-desktop? All in the cause of some ill defined objective
that both of you are incapable of explaining and defending even after
the situation has been explained to you?

[r***@gmail.com]

Post by Brian

Post by Marco Möller

Post by Richard Owlett
1. remove the check-box.
2. rephrase it as "Chose a Debian desktop environment".
3. add a default check by GNOME.

YES, Exactly this!

That's it? You and Richard Owlett would jettison the ability of a user
to install task-desktop? All in the cause of some ill defined objective
that both of you are incapable of explaining and defending even after
the situation has been explained to you?

I guess what is not clear to me includes (and I did some googling while taking
a break from yardwork):

* does task-desktop provide some functionality that would not be installed
if the user requested GNOME, KDE, ...?

* does task-desktop provide some functionality that would work without one
of the other listed DEs (GNOME, KDE, ...)?

* and, for extra credit, what is the functionality that task-desktop
provides that is not included with any of the DEs?

[Brian]

Post by r***@gmail.com

Post by Brian

Post by Marco Möller

Post by Richard Owlett
1. remove the check-box.
2. rephrase it as "Chose a Debian desktop environment".
3. add a default check by GNOME.

YES, Exactly this!

That's it? You and Richard Owlett would jettison the ability of a user
to install task-desktop? All in the cause of some ill defined objective
that both of you are incapable of explaining and defending even after
the situation has been explained to you?

I guess what is not clear to me includes (and I did some googling while taking
* does task-desktop provide some functionality that would not be installed
if the user requested GNOME, KDE, ...?
* does task-desktop provide some functionality that would work without one
of the other listed DEs (GNOME, KDE, ...)?
* and, for extra credit, what is the functionality that task-desktop
provides that is not included with any of the DEs?

All three of these questions have been answered twice.

[Richard Owlett]

Post by Brian

Post by r***@gmail.com

Post by Brian

Post by Marco Möller

Post by Richard Owlett
1. remove the check-box.
2. rephrase it as "Chose a Debian desktop environment".
3. add a default check by GNOME.

YES, Exactly this!

That's it? You and Richard Owlett would jettison the ability of a user
to install task-desktop? All in the cause of some ill defined objective
that both of you are incapable of explaining and defending even after
the situation has been explained to you?

I guess what is not clear to me includes (and I did some googling while taking
* does task-desktop provide some functionality that would not be installed
if the user requested GNOME, KDE, ...?
* does task-desktop provide some functionality that would work without one
of the other listed DEs (GNOME, KDE, ...)?
* and, for extra credit, what is the functionality that task-desktop
provides that is not included with any of the DEs?

All three of these questions have been answered twice.

If answered {which I doubt}, the explicit answers to those explicit
questions were not conveyed to readers.

P.S. Note a repetition?

[Brian]

Post by Richard Owlett

Post by Brian

Post by r***@gmail.com
I guess what is not clear to me includes (and I did some googling while taking
* does task-desktop provide some functionality that would not be installed
if the user requested GNOME, KDE, ...?
* does task-desktop provide some functionality that would work without one
of the other listed DEs (GNOME, KDE, ...)?
* and, for extra credit, what is the functionality that task-desktop
provides that is not included with any of the DEs?

All three of these questions have been answered twice.

If answered {which I doubt}, the explicit answers to those explicit
questions were not conveyed to readers.
* does task-desktop provide some functionality that would not be installed
if the user requested GNOME, KDE, ...?

It provides the default DE (and can be preseeded with tasksel/first) :

Recommends: task-gnome-desktop | task-xfce-desktop | task-kde-desktop |
task-lxde-desktop | task-cinnamon-desktop |
task-mate-desktop | task-lxqt-desktop

It allows only X to be installed (--no-install-recommends):

Depends: tasksel (= 3.53), xorg, xserver-xorg-video-all,
xserver-xorg-input-all, desktop-base

Post by Richard Owlett
* does task-desktop provide some functionality that would work without one
of the other listed DEs (GNOME, KDE, ...)?

It allows only X to be installed (--no-install-recommends).

Post by Richard Owlett
* and, for extra credit, what is the functionality that task-desktop
provides that is not included with any of the DEs?

For task-mate-desktop:

Depends: tasksel (= 3.53), task-desktop, mate-desktop-environment,
lightdm

It is not possible to install only X.

I hope this helps in the exploration of the task selection menu and the
search for leanness.

[r***@gmail.com]

Thank you!

[Marco Möller]

Post by Brian

Post by Marco Möller

   1. remove the check-box.
   2. rephrase it as "Chose a Debian desktop environment".
   3. add a default check by GNOME.

YES, Exactly this!

That's it? You and Richard Owlett would jettison the ability of a user
to install task-desktop? All in the cause of some ill defined objective
that both of you are incapable of explaining and defending even after
the situation has been explained to you?

The situation needs to be explained to new Debian users during the
installation process, so that they can expect correctly what would
happen by their selection in this menu. But the need for further
explanation could fully be avoided by simply changing the menu to what
is nicely suggested above, because the above suggested menu would
prevent misunderstandings.
The elsewhere already mentioned idea, to even add an option for letting
a user select if a minimum version of the selected graphical desktop
environment(s) should be installed, or if a more complete version
including additionally recommended packages is preferred, would be perfect.

I assume that we can all agree, that the experienced users will be able
to deal with any version of that menu, especially as they would also
know how to install their system using apt manually on the console and
therefore might anyway not select anything in this menu. Consequently,
this menu is more targeted to Debian beginners, and Debian beginners
should be welcomed with unequivocal options to select from.

Best regards, Marco!

[Brian]

Post by Marco Möller

Post by Brian

Post by Marco Möller

   1. remove the check-box.
   2. rephrase it as "Chose a Debian desktop environment".
   3. add a default check by GNOME.

YES, Exactly this!

That's it? You and Richard Owlett would jettison the ability of a user
to install task-desktop? All in the cause of some ill defined objective
that both of you are incapable of explaining and defending even after
the situation has been explained to you?

The situation needs to be explained to new Debian users during the
installation process, so that they can expect correctly what would happen by
their selection in this menu.

The function of the menu is crystal clear.

Activating as it as presented a user gets the ticked option.

Unticking the option gets the user nothing.

Start with that.

[Greg Wooledge]

Post by Brian
The function of the menu is crystal clear.
Activating as it as presented a user gets the ticked option.
Unticking the option gets the user nothing.
Start with that.

Right now, if you un-check GNOME, but leave "Debian desktop" checked,
you get a mystery desktop, which usually but not always turns out to
be GNOME, which is the thing that you just un-checked.

How you don't find that confusing is a mystery to me.

[Brian]

Post by Greg Wooledge

Post by Brian
The function of the menu is crystal clear.
Activating as it as presented a user gets the ticked option.
Unticking the option gets the user nothing.
Start with that.

Right now, if you un-check GNOME, but leave "Debian desktop" checked,
you get a mystery desktop, which usually but not always turns out to
be GNOME, which is the thing that you just un-checked.

I don't really want to nit-pick but, when the menu is presented, only
"Debian desktop environment" is selected. A user who wonders what it
provides is free to read the available documentation (Installation
Guide, wiki etc) to resolve the mystery. When I have a Bash issue I
often find a bit of reading clarifies matters :).

The default desktop is determined by the Recommends: of task-desktop.
The DEs are installed based on the Depends: of the various packages.
Is there a better way of doing it?

Post by Greg Wooledge
How you don't find that confusing is a mystery to me.

I'll take that to be rhetorical.

Regarding new users: they are just as likely to be mystified by "lxde"
and "lxqt" as by "Debian desktop environment".

[r***@gmail.com]

Post by Brian

Post by Greg Wooledge
Right now, if you un-check GNOME, but leave "Debian desktop" checked,
you get a mystery desktop, which usually but not always turns out to
be GNOME, which is the thing that you just un-checked.

...

Post by Brian
The default desktop is determined by the Recommends: of task-desktop.
The DEs are installed based on the Depends: of the various packages.
Is there a better way of doing it?

Post by Greg Wooledge
How you don't find that confusing is a mystery to me.

...

Post by Brian
Regarding new users: they are just as likely to be mystified by "lxde"
and "lxqt" as by "Debian desktop environment".

I don't know for sure, but one suggestion I'd make is to move that first option
(whatever it said, something like Default debian desktop) to be the last
option and change the wording, something like: "[for advanced users:] [can be
used to] install X only (with no desktop)" (I guess if you want X only you
have select that in the other place you mentioned.)

I suspect many of the newbies to Linux will have heard about GNOME, KDE, along
with the suggestion to consider one of the other much simpler desktops. (When
I encounter a newbie, I recommend either KDE or one of the lightweight
desktops, I'm a "never GNOMEr"

[Fabrice BAUZAC-STEHLY]

Post by r***@gmail.com

Post by Brian

Post by Greg Wooledge
Right now, if you un-check GNOME, but leave "Debian desktop" checked,
you get a mystery desktop, which usually but not always turns out to
be GNOME, which is the thing that you just un-checked.

The default desktop is determined by the Recommends: of task-desktop.
The DEs are installed based on the Depends: of the various packages.
Is there a better way of doing it?

Post by Greg Wooledge
How you don't find that confusing is a mystery to me.

Regarding new users: they are just as likely to be mystified by "lxde"
and "lxqt" as by "Debian desktop environment".

I don't know for sure, but one suggestion I'd make is to move that first option
(whatever it said, something like Default debian desktop) to be the last
option and change the wording, something like: "[for advanced users:] [can be
used to] install X only (with no desktop)" (I guess if you want X only you
have select that in the other place you mentioned.)

And in that case, if users insist on this possibility, it would be much
more useful to have this entry *always* install X only even without the
"no recommends" option.

--
Fabrice BAUZAC-STEHLY
PGP 015AE9B25DCB0511D200A75DE5674DEA514C891D

[Andrei POPESCU]

Post by r***@gmail.com
I don't know for sure, but one suggestion I'd make is to move that first option
(whatever it said, something like Default debian desktop) to be the last
option and change the wording, something like: "[for advanced users:] [can be
used to] install X only (with no desktop)" (I guess if you want X only you
have select that in the other place you mentioned.)

Even if that is technically correct (it can be use to install only X, if
you configure the installer to not install Recommends), it is, in my not
so humble opinion, an inefficient way to do it and can also have
unintended consequences (what if I want to have only X, but with all
Recommends?).

Post by r***@gmail.com
I suspect many of the newbies to Linux will have heard about GNOME, KDE, along
with the suggestion to consider one of the other much simpler desktops. (When
I encounter a newbie, I recommend either KDE or one of the lightweight
desktops, I'm a "never GNOMEr"

In my experience (own as well as assisting other newcomers), users
coming from Windows or Mac will be surprised by the mere existence of
different options here.

Best to keep it as simple as possible.

Kind regards,
Andrei

[Brian]

Post by Andrei POPESCU

Post by r***@gmail.com
I don't know for sure, but one suggestion I'd make is to move that first option
(whatever it said, something like Default debian desktop) to be the last
option and change the wording, something like: "[for advanced users:] [can be
used to] install X only (with no desktop)" (I guess if you want X only you
have select that in the other place you mentioned.)

Even if that is technically correct (it can be use to install only X, if
you configure the installer to not install Recommends), it is, in my not
so humble opinion, an inefficient way to do it and can also have
unintended consequences (what if I want to have only X, but with all
Recommends?).

A user wants X with all its recommended packages? Then don't use this
technique.

Post by Andrei POPESCU

Post by r***@gmail.com
I suspect many of the newbies to Linux will have heard about GNOME, KDE, along
with the suggestion to consider one of the other much simpler desktops. (When
I encounter a newbie, I recommend either KDE or one of the lightweight
desktops, I'm a "never GNOMEr"

In my experience (own as well as assisting other newcomers), users
coming from Windows or Mac will be surprised by the mere existence of
different options here.

Indeed.

Post by Andrei POPESCU
Best to keep it as simple as possible.

Keep to what we have? Glad you agree.

[Andrei POPESCU]

Post by Brian

Post by Andrei POPESCU
Best to keep it as simple as possible.

Keep to what we have? Glad you agree.

Well, having GNOME installed after un-checking it is quite the opposite
of intuitive in my opinion, so for what it's worth[1], I'd prefer to
have that changed.

On the other hand it seems this isn't a problem in practice, otherwise
the d-i developers would have done something about it.

[1] All my recent installs were done with debootstrap/mmdebstrap, so I'm
not the target audience of the installer.

Kind regards,
Andrei

[Kenneth Parker]

Post by Andrei POPESCU

Post by Brian

Post by Andrei POPESCU
Best to keep it as simple as possible.

Keep to what we have? Glad you agree.

Well, having GNOME installed after un-checking it is quite the opposite
of intuitive in my opinion, so for what it's worth[1], I'd prefer to
have that changed.
On the other hand it seems this isn't a problem in practice, otherwise
the d-i developers would have done something about it.
[1] All my recent installs were done with debootstrap/mmdebstrap, so I'm
not the target audience of the installer.
Kind regards,
Andrei
--
http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser

I recall a recent (10.2) install of Buster, using netinst Expert Text
Install, where I allowed a Desktop to install. The "default" was, actually
xfce.

(Normally, I uncheck all, except for SSH Server and Console Utilities).

Kenneth Parker

[David Wright]

Post by Kenneth Parker

Post by Andrei POPESCU

Post by Brian

Post by Andrei POPESCU
Best to keep it as simple as possible.

Keep to what we have? Glad you agree.

Well, having GNOME installed after un-checking it is quite the opposite
of intuitive in my opinion, so for what it's worth[1], I'd prefer to
have that changed.
On the other hand it seems this isn't a problem in practice, otherwise
the d-i developers would have done something about it.

None of the desktops is checked on my screen shots, so wouldn't you
have to check GNOME before you unchecked it?

Post by Kenneth Parker

Post by Andrei POPESCU
[1] All my recent installs were done with debootstrap/mmdebstrap, so I'm
not the target audience of the installer.

I recall a recent (10.2) install of Buster, using netinst Expert Text
Install, where I allowed a Desktop to install. The "default" was, actually
xfce.

Which ISO?

Post by Kenneth Parker
(Normally, I uncheck all, except for SSH Server and Console Utilities).

(and sometimes Print.)

Cheers,
David.

[Brian]

Post by Andrei POPESCU

Post by Brian

Post by Andrei POPESCU
Best to keep it as simple as possible.

Keep to what we have? Glad you agree.

Well, having GNOME installed after un-checking it is quite the opposite
of intuitive in my opinion, so for what it's worth[1], I'd prefer to
have that changed.

Have what changed? GNOME is not checked; easily verified by running
'tasksel'. The premise is questionable.

Post by Andrei POPESCU
On the other hand it seems this isn't a problem in practice, otherwise
the d-i developers would have done something about it.

A sensible view, IMO. This menu has been in place for at least 15 years.
A couple of users who cannot sort out how to use it is hardly a basis
for altering it.

[Leslie Rhorer]

Post by Andrei POPESCU
In my experience (own as well as assisting other newcomers), users
coming from Windows or Mac will be surprised by the mere existence of
different options here.

Most Windows users are completely shocked by the notion a computer can
do anything but browse the internet and play solitaire. To them,
computer = video monitor = internet. Frankly, I could not possibly care
less what Windows or clueless Mac users find surprising. If soneone
wants to cater to them, then that is fine (I suppose), but don't make
that a problem for those of us who actually make our computers work for us.

"New" and "Stupid" are not the same thing, nor are "long time user" and
"Stupid" necessarily mutually exclusive.

Post by Andrei POPESCU
Best to keep it as simple as possible.

I doubt I could ever possibly disagree more. Make it FLEXIBLE, not
simple. Make it POWERFUL, not limited. Make it CONFIGURABLE, not
paternalistic. Make it clear and of extreme depth, not infantile. Give
the user / admin ABSOLUTE CONTROL. Maintainers and developers should be
making as few decisions as possible, which means offering every possible
alternative.

[Richard Owlett]

Post by Marco Möller

Post by Brian

Post by Marco Möller

     1. remove the check-box.
     2. rephrase it as "Chose a Debian desktop environment".
     3. add a default check by GNOME.

YES, Exactly this!

That's it? You and Richard Owlett would jettison the ability of a user
to install task-desktop? All in the cause of some ill defined objective
that both of you are incapable of explaining and defending even after
the situation has been explained to you?

The situation needs to be explained to new Debian users during the
installation process, so that they can expect correctly what would
happen by their selection in this menu. But the need for further
explanation could fully be avoided by simply changing the menu to what
is nicely suggested above, because the above suggested menu would
prevent misunderstandings.
The elsewhere already mentioned idea, to even add an option for letting
a user select if a minimum version of the selected graphical desktop
environment(s) should be installed, or if a more complete version
including additionally recommended packages is preferred, would be perfect.
I assume that we can all agree, that the experienced users will be able
to deal with any version of that menu, especially as they would also
know how to install their system using apt manually on the console and
therefore might anyway not select anything in this menu. Consequently,
this menu is more targeted to Debian beginners, and Debian beginners
should be welcomed with unequivocal options to select from.
Best regards, Marco!

+1 *Thank You*

[Fabrice BAUZAC-STEHLY]

Post by Marco Möller

Post by Brian

Post by Marco Möller

Post by Richard Owlett
1. remove the check-box.
2. rephrase it as "Chose a Debian desktop environment".
3. add a default check by GNOME.

YES, Exactly this!

That's it? You and Richard Owlett would jettison the ability of a user
to install task-desktop? All in the cause of some ill defined objective
that both of you are incapable of explaining and defending even after
the situation has been explained to you?

The situation needs to be explained to new Debian users during the
installation process, so that they can expect correctly what would
happen by their selection in this menu. But the need for further
explanation could fully be avoided by simply changing the menu to what
is nicely suggested above, because the above suggested menu would
prevent misunderstandings.
The elsewhere already mentioned idea, to even add an option for
letting a user select if a minimum version of the selected graphical
desktop environment(s) should be installed, or if a more complete
version including additionally recommended packages is preferred,
would be perfect.
I assume that we can all agree, that the experienced users will be
able to deal with any version of that menu, especially as they would
also know how to install their system using apt manually on the
console and therefore might anyway not select anything in this
menu. Consequently, this menu is more targeted to Debian beginners,
and Debian beginners should be welcomed with unequivocal options to
select from.
Best regards, Marco!

+1

--
Fabrice BAUZAC-STEHLY
PGP 015AE9B25DCB0511D200A75DE5674DEA514C891D

[mick crane]

Post by Richard Owlett
My proposed alternative is to leave unchecked all options on the
"Software Selection" menu[1] and create appropriate pseudo-packages to
be installed with "apt-get --no-install-recommends"

I suppose if you were *that* concerned you could install a basic system
and install everything from sources. What that "basic system" would
contain I don't really know. But that's what the nice people at Debian
do so you don't have to.

mick