Discussion:
Buster with MATE without systemd
(too old to reply)
Marc Shapiro
2020-09-16 02:50:01 UTC
Permalink
I have a fresh install of Buster which is running MATE as the Desktop
Environment.  It has taken me until now to get it working, without
messing up my current Stretch install on the same machine.  The next
thing that I want to do is replace systemd with sysvinit.  I am not
trying to start a flamewar about which is better.  I want sysvinit, not
systemd, let's leave it at that.

I ran 'aptitude install sysvinit-core'.  This resulted in about 2 dozen
packages to be removed (some of which, I would have removed anyway) and
a similar number with unmet dependencies (mostly recommends).  I can
live with that and work around any issues once I'm running on sysvinit,
so I accept the option.

This gives me another screen full of text that basically says that it
needs a terminal emulator, but xterm is being removed.  It wants to
install pterm and, again, leave a number of recommends as they are.  OK,
I accept that option.

Now I get a full screen of packages to be removed.  Most are libraries,
and what seem to be MATE virtual packages, along with some other
packages, including the GIMP.  I DO want MATE and the GIMP.  This looks
like a problem.  I cancel the install.

So, my question is:  Can I replace systemd with sysvint and still keep
MATE?  Do I need to let aptitude uninstall MATE, and then reinstall
after sysvinit has been installed?  Or have MATE and the GIMP been
updated in a way that requires systemd and not sysvinit?

If it is possible to do what I want, what is the easiest way to
accomplish it?


Marc
songbird
2020-09-16 10:20:01 UTC
Permalink
Marc Shapiro wrote:
...
Post by Marc Shapiro
If it is possible to do what I want, what is the easiest way to
accomplish it?
i haven't tried that as i'm ok with what i have going but
i'll be interested in what you find out.

can you clone your current partition and then try it out
and if it doesn't work then you could restore it?


songbird
Andrei POPESCU
2020-09-16 12:00:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Marc Shapiro
I ran 'aptitude install sysvinit-core'.  This resulted in about 2 dozen
packages to be removed (some of which, I would have removed anyway) and a
similar number with unmet dependencies (mostly recommends).  I can live with
that and work around any issues once I'm running on sysvinit, so I accept
the option.
Try installing libpam-elogind as well.

Kind regards,
Andrei
--
http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser
Greg Wooledge
2020-09-16 12:00:02 UTC
Permalink
I want sysvinit, not systemd
Should be easy.
I ran 'aptitude install sysvinit-core'.
This gives me another screen full of text [...]
Now I get a full screen of packages to be removed. [...]
I think the basic problem here is that you used aptitude instead of
apt-get. Aptitude is probably not very well tested for this switch-over,
and seems to be trying to out-clever itself.

Just use "apt-get install sysvinit-core" like the bot factoid says.
Reco
2020-09-16 12:40:01 UTC
Permalink
Hi.
So, my question is:  Can I replace systemd with sysvint and still keep MATE?
Exibit 1 (mate-core and systemd-sysv are installed):

# apt install sysvinit-core systemd-
...
The following packages will be REMOVED:
caja dbus-user-session gvfs gvfs-backends gvfs-daemons libpam-systemd
...
systemd systemd-sysv udisks2
The following NEW packages will be installed:
initscripts insserv startpar sysv-rc sysvinit-core

Exibit 2:

# apt install sysvinit-core systemd- udisks2
...
udisks2 : Depends: libpam-systemd but it is not going to be installed


Exibit 3:

# apt install sysvinit-core systemd- policykit-1
...
The following packages have unmet dependencies:
policykit-1 : Depends: libpam-systemd but it is not going to be installed


So, to answer your question. It may be possible to keep assorted MATE
programs (text editor, terminal, etc) and have sysvinit-core installed.
But everything that makes MATE the DE (i.e. file manager, panel,
session, etc) is tied to either udisks2 or policykit, and you cannot
keep those (both require libpam-systemd) and have sysvinit-sysv.

Even if you cheat it with equivs, and create a replacement package
for libpam-systemd, both udisks2 or policykit - you'll just break those
and leave yourself with non-mounting storage media and without the
ability to suspend and poweroff.

Reco
Andrew Cater
2020-09-16 13:10:02 UTC
Permalink
Looking at the Wikipedia entry for Devuan -
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devuan - it appears that the folks over there
have had to modify precisely udisks2 and policykit. This is not a Devuan
support list - but it looks as if stock Debian may not allow the switch
once a full system is installed. If you were to install only a minimum,
text-only system, switch to sysvinit and then use tasksel to add the MATE
desktop environment, it might then work but there's no guarantee unless you
try this.

All the very best, as ever,

Andy C.
Post by Reco
Hi.
So, my question is: Can I replace systemd with sysvint and still keep
MATE?
# apt install sysvinit-core systemd-
...
caja dbus-user-session gvfs gvfs-backends gvfs-daemons libpam-systemd
...
systemd systemd-sysv udisks2
initscripts insserv startpar sysv-rc sysvinit-core
# apt install sysvinit-core systemd- udisks2
...
udisks2 : Depends: libpam-systemd but it is not going to be installed
# apt install sysvinit-core systemd- policykit-1
...
policykit-1 : Depends: libpam-systemd but it is not going to be installed
So, to answer your question. It may be possible to keep assorted MATE
programs (text editor, terminal, etc) and have sysvinit-core installed.
But everything that makes MATE the DE (i.e. file manager, panel,
session, etc) is tied to either udisks2 or policykit, and you cannot
keep those (both require libpam-systemd) and have sysvinit-sysv.
Even if you cheat it with equivs, and create a replacement package
for libpam-systemd, both udisks2 or policykit - you'll just break those
and leave yourself with non-mounting storage media and without the
ability to suspend and poweroff.
Reco
Nito
2020-09-16 13:20:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Marc Shapiro
I have a fresh install of Buster which is running MATE as the Desktop
Environment.  […]   The next thing that I
want to do is replace systemd with sysvinit.
Now I get a full screen of packages to be removed.  Most are libraries, and
what seem to be MATE virtual packages, along with some other packages,
including the GIMP.  I DO want MATE and the GIMP.  This looks like a
problem.
The problem with MATE is that many MATE packages depend on mate-polkit, which
depends on policykit-1, which in buster depends on libpam-systemd.
In Bullseye this dependency is changed to the new virtual package
logind, which can be provided by either systemd or elogind.
There may be other packages pulling in systemd.

Using MATE without any logind backend does mostly work, but you'll miss things
like auto-mounting drives etc.

Until bullseye becomes stable, you could maybe try to trick apt into accepting
elogind, by creating your own 'libpam-system', 'libsystemd0' packages that
just pull in the elogind counterparts.
This may however have unintended side-effects if something genuinely depends
on systemd specifically.

There's also an old bug about this:
https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=909192


~~ Nito
Patrick Bartek
2020-09-16 17:50:01 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 15 Sep 2020 19:28:34 -0700
Post by Marc Shapiro
I have a fresh install of Buster which is running MATE as the Desktop
Environment.  It has taken me until now to get it working, without
messing up my current Stretch install on the same machine.  The next
thing that I want to do is replace systemd with sysvinit.  I am not
trying to start a flamewar about which is better.  I want sysvinit, not
systemd, let's leave it at that.
I ran 'aptitude install sysvinit-core'.  This resulted in about 2 dozen
[snip]
So, my question is:  Can I replace systemd with sysvint and still keep
MATE?  Do I need to let aptitude uninstall MATE, and then reinstall
after sysvinit has been installed?  Or have MATE and the GIMP been
updated in a way that requires systemd and not sysvinit?
Short answer? Probably not. systemd has become too pervasive a
dependency to do so. It shouldn't be. No other init system I know of
is.
Post by Marc Shapiro
If it is possible to do what I want, what is the easiest way to
accomplish it?
Last year, I tried to install Buster with sysvinit as I had done
previously with Stretch. I started with a basic terminal install.
(Ultimately intending to have Openbox window manager and a single
lxpanel for my GUI as I had done with Stretch.) I converted Buster to
sysvinit with no problems. It rebooted and all looked fine until I
tried to install xorg. I noted that sysvinit would be uninstalled and
systemd reinstalled. I still had all the systemd libraries. They
hadn't been removed. And I wasn't trying to created a systemd-less
system. Even trying a minimal xorg install resulted in the same
problem. The culprit? dbus, which is an xorg dependency, but it itself
has a systemd dependency.

To make a long story short, after two or so weeks of research and
numerous failed trials, I came to the conclusion that systemd has
become too entrenched in the dependency tree of Buster to successfully
convert to systvinit. Even trying to install something that has no
systemd dependency at all depends on something, that depends on
something else, etc. that has a systemd dependency. And systemd
gets reinstalled.

I think to do what you want to do with Buster will require a complete
recompile from source removing all systemd dependencies.

My solution? Devuan Beowulf(Buster). All systemd dependencies have
been removed, etc. Sysvinit runs just fine. It's the default. You even
have the option to use Openrc as an init, but it's still listed as
"experimental."

Good Luck.

B
Greg Wooledge
2020-09-16 18:10:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Patrick Bartek
To make a long story short, after two or so weeks of research and
numerous failed trials, I came to the conclusion that systemd has
become too entrenched in the dependency tree of Buster to successfully
convert to systvinit.
If you specify "... on a desktop system", then maybe you're correct.

For most servers, it shouldn't be an issue.
Patrick Bartek
2020-09-16 23:40:01 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 16 Sep 2020 13:52:15 -0400
Post by Greg Wooledge
Post by Patrick Bartek
To make a long story short, after two or so weeks of research and
numerous failed trials, I came to the conclusion that systemd has
become too entrenched in the dependency tree of Buster to successfully
convert to systvinit.
If you specify "... on a desktop system", then maybe you're correct.
For most servers, it shouldn't be an issue.
The subject _was_ about desktops, MATE specifically, not servers.

However, my trials with Buster was from a year ago. And I haven't
tried a sysvinit install with it since. Perhaps some systemd
dependencies have been eliminated. Be great if they all were! Init
systems should never ever be dependencies.

B
David Wright
2020-09-17 01:20:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Patrick Bartek
On Wed, 16 Sep 2020 13:52:15 -0400
Post by Greg Wooledge
Post by Patrick Bartek
To make a long story short, after two or so weeks of research and
numerous failed trials, I came to the conclusion that systemd has
become too entrenched in the dependency tree of Buster to successfully
convert to systvinit.
If you specify "... on a desktop system", then maybe you're correct.
For most servers, it shouldn't be an issue.
The subject _was_ about desktops, MATE specifically, not servers.
However, my trials with Buster was from a year ago. And I haven't
tried a sysvinit install with it since. Perhaps some systemd
dependencies have been eliminated. Be great if they all were! Init
systems should never ever be dependencies.
I know little to nothing about DEs. However, I see that there are
people who run MATE without running a systemd init system. This (dated)
link makes a distinction between installation dependencies and runtime
dependencies, so I presume that you might be able to put up with the
presence of unused systemd packages in the installation.

https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/279603/using-mate-desktop-without-systemd
Post by Patrick Bartek
[…] Had no problems converting to
sysvinit with a terminal only system. First thing I did. I always
start my installs that way and build from there. Lighter, faster, more
efficient system without all the crud that comes with a general DE
install.
I would certainly recommend that the OP did that, rather than
converting as an afterthought.

Cheers,
David.
Patrick Bartek
2020-09-17 02:50:02 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 16 Sep 2020 19:55:45 -0500
Post by David Wright
Post by Patrick Bartek
On Wed, 16 Sep 2020 13:52:15 -0400
Post by Greg Wooledge
Post by Patrick Bartek
To make a long story short, after two or so weeks of research and
numerous failed trials, I came to the conclusion that systemd has
become too entrenched in the dependency tree of Buster to successfully
convert to systvinit.
If you specify "... on a desktop system", then maybe you're correct.
For most servers, it shouldn't be an issue.
The subject _was_ about desktops, MATE specifically, not servers.
However, my trials with Buster was from a year ago. And I haven't
tried a sysvinit install with it since. Perhaps some systemd
dependencies have been eliminated. Be great if they all were! Init
systems should never ever be dependencies.
I know little to nothing about DEs. However, I see that there are
people who run MATE without running a systemd init system. This (dated)
link makes a distinction between installation dependencies and runtime
dependencies, so I presume that you might be able to put up with the
presence of unused systemd packages in the installation.
https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/279603/using-mate-desktop-without-systemd
This is outdateded -- It's for Jessie. systemd only had a toe hold
then. It's more entrenched now with Buster. Converting Stretch to
sysvinit too only installing sysvinit. That install took care of the
rest. Not so with Buster with xorg. Sysvinit still installs and
works just fine with a terminal system though.
Post by David Wright
Post by Patrick Bartek
[…] Had no problems converting to
sysvinit with a terminal only system. First thing I did. I always
start my installs that way and build from there. Lighter, faster, more
efficient system without all the crud that comes with a general DE
install.
I would certainly recommend that the OP did that, rather than
converting as an afterthought.
Once you install a DE, getting rid of it (or parts of it) is impossible.
Too many interconnected dependencies. I know. I've tried. That's how
I learned to build a system from a basic terminal install instead.

B
Marc Shapiro
2020-09-17 03:10:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Wright
Post by Patrick Bartek
On Wed, 16 Sep 2020 13:52:15 -0400
Post by Greg Wooledge
Post by Patrick Bartek
To make a long story short, after two or so weeks of research and
numerous failed trials, I came to the conclusion that systemd has
become too entrenched in the dependency tree of Buster to successfully
convert to systvinit.
If you specify "... on a desktop system", then maybe you're correct.
For most servers, it shouldn't be an issue.
The subject _was_ about desktops, MATE specifically, not servers.
However, my trials with Buster was from a year ago. And I haven't
tried a sysvinit install with it since. Perhaps some systemd
dependencies have been eliminated. Be great if they all were! Init
systems should never ever be dependencies.
I know little to nothing about DEs. However, I see that there are
people who run MATE without running a systemd init system. This (dated)
link makes a distinction between installation dependencies and runtime
dependencies, so I presume that you might be able to put up with the
presence of unused systemd packages in the installation.
https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/279603/using-mate-desktop-without-systemd
Post by Patrick Bartek
[…] Had no problems converting to
sysvinit with a terminal only system. First thing I did. I always
start my installs that way and build from there. Lighter, faster, more
efficient system without all the crud that comes with a general DE
install.
I would certainly recommend that the OP did that, rather than
converting as an afterthought.
Unfortunately, as it says at the bottom of that page, systemd-shim is no
longer available.  It worked in Jessie, I used it then, but is not an
option, now.

As for installing only a minimal, textbased, system and then converting
-- I'm sure that works, until you try to install xorg and Mate.  That is
where things start to get 'fun.'  Dependencies are dependencies. 
Running without a DE, or even a different DE is not an option in this
case.  I am not the only one using this box.  My wife is now working
from home and my daughter's college is strictly distance learning. 
(Thank you Caronavirus Pandemic.) I can not go changing how things work
for them at this time.

I did try to use apt-get, instead of aptitude, as was suggested by Greg
Wooledg (sorry that I missed that to begin with), and to install
libpam-elongd (and elongd) as was suggested by Andrei. Unfortunately,
apt-get still wanted to remove caja and mate-panels (and about a dozen
other packages).  Without mate-panels, the DE is pretty much unusable. 
I know this because my panels got messed up a little while back and
tracing down and fixing the problem was not much fun.

This seems to leave me with two options:

1) Bite the bullet and put up with systemd.

2) Switch to Devuan.  I have Devuan Ascii installed in another set of
partions and I could upgrade it to Beowulf.

I don't really like either of these options.  I have been running Debian
for the past 21, or 22 years (since Bo, i believe).  I'd rather not
switch.  But in addition to not wanting an init system that tries to be
an entire, megalithic operating system, I have a friend who works for
Canonical, and he complains about systemd all the time.

If anyone can suggest any other options, I am open to suggestions.


Marc
Patrick Bartek
2020-09-17 04:40:01 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 16 Sep 2020 19:44:03 -0700
Post by Marc Shapiro
Post by David Wright
Post by Patrick Bartek
On Wed, 16 Sep 2020 13:52:15 -0400
Post by Greg Wooledge
Post by Patrick Bartek
To make a long story short, after two or so weeks of research and
numerous failed trials, I came to the conclusion that systemd has
become too entrenched in the dependency tree of Buster to successfully
convert to systvinit.
If you specify "... on a desktop system", then maybe you're correct.
For most servers, it shouldn't be an issue.
The subject _was_ about desktops, MATE specifically, not servers.
However, my trials with Buster was from a year ago. And I haven't
tried a sysvinit install with it since. Perhaps some systemd
dependencies have been eliminated. Be great if they all were! Init
systems should never ever be dependencies.
I know little to nothing about DEs. However, I see that there are
people who run MATE without running a systemd init system. This (dated)
link makes a distinction between installation dependencies and runtime
dependencies, so I presume that you might be able to put up with the
presence of unused systemd packages in the installation.
https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/279603/using-mate-desktop-without-systemd
Post by Patrick Bartek
[…] Had no problems converting to
sysvinit with a terminal only system. First thing I did. I always
start my installs that way and build from there. Lighter, faster, more
efficient system without all the crud that comes with a general DE
install.
I would certainly recommend that the OP did that, rather than
converting as an afterthought.
Unfortunately, as it says at the bottom of that page, systemd-shim is no
longer available.  It worked in Jessie, I used it then, but is not an
option, now.
As for installing only a minimal, textbased, system and then converting
-- I'm sure that works, until you try to install xorg and Mate.  That is
where things start to get 'fun.'  Dependencies are dependencies. 
Running without a DE, or even a different DE is not an option in this
case.  I am not the only one using this box.  My wife is now working
from home and my daughter's college is strictly distance learning. 
(Thank you Caronavirus Pandemic.) I can not go changing how things work
for them at this time.
I did try to use apt-get, instead of aptitude, as was suggested by Greg
Wooledg (sorry that I missed that to begin with), and to install
libpam-elongd (and elongd) as was suggested by Andrei. Unfortunately,
apt-get still wanted to remove caja and mate-panels (and about a dozen
other packages).  Without mate-panels, the DE is pretty much unusable. 
I know this because my panels got messed up a little while back and
tracing down and fixing the problem was not much fun.
1) Bite the bullet and put up with systemd.
2) Switch to Devuan.  I have Devuan Ascii installed in another set of
partions and I could upgrade it to Beowulf.
I don't really like either of these options.  I have been running Debian
for the past 21, or 22 years (since Bo, i believe).  I'd rather not
switch.  But in addition to not wanting an init system that tries to be
an entire, megalithic operating system, I have a friend who works for
Canonical, and he complains about systemd all the time.
If anyone can suggest any other options, I am open to suggestions.
Upgrade your Devuan ASCII(Stretch) to Beowulf(Buster) and try it out.
Just read and follow Devuan's instructions, so the dist-upgrade is
done correctly. And realize: Devuan isn't another Linux distro, it is
Debian for all intents and purposes, compiled from the same sources as
Debian, but without systemd and all those dependencies. It looks and
performs the same. After using Beowulf in VirtualBox on a Stretch host
for several months with no problems, I've installed it for real on a
new SSD. No problems. It's your's (and mine's) easiest solution to
systemd.

Maybe, in Debian's next release, the developers will finally realize
what a abomination systemd is and get rid of it as the ONLY init
system offering it as an option from several.

B
Marc Shapiro
2020-09-17 07:00:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Patrick Bartek
On Wed, 16 Sep 2020 19:44:03 -0700
Post by Marc Shapiro
Post by David Wright
Post by Patrick Bartek
On Wed, 16 Sep 2020 13:52:15 -0400
Post by Greg Wooledge
Post by Patrick Bartek
To make a long story short, after two or so weeks of research and
numerous failed trials, I came to the conclusion that systemd has
become too entrenched in the dependency tree of Buster to successfully
convert to systvinit.
If you specify "... on a desktop system", then maybe you're correct.
For most servers, it shouldn't be an issue.
The subject _was_ about desktops, MATE specifically, not servers.
However, my trials with Buster was from a year ago. And I haven't
tried a sysvinit install with it since. Perhaps some systemd
dependencies have been eliminated. Be great if they all were! Init
systems should never ever be dependencies.
I know little to nothing about DEs. However, I see that there are
people who run MATE without running a systemd init system. This (dated)
link makes a distinction between installation dependencies and runtime
dependencies, so I presume that you might be able to put up with the
presence of unused systemd packages in the installation.
https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/279603/using-mate-desktop-without-systemd
Post by Patrick Bartek
[…] Had no problems converting to
sysvinit with a terminal only system. First thing I did. I always
start my installs that way and build from there. Lighter, faster, more
efficient system without all the crud that comes with a general DE
install.
I would certainly recommend that the OP did that, rather than
converting as an afterthought.
Unfortunately, as it says at the bottom of that page, systemd-shim is no
longer available.  It worked in Jessie, I used it then, but is not an
option, now.
As for installing only a minimal, textbased, system and then converting
-- I'm sure that works, until you try to install xorg and Mate.  That is
where things start to get 'fun.'  Dependencies are dependencies.
Running without a DE, or even a different DE is not an option in this
case.  I am not the only one using this box.  My wife is now working
from home and my daughter's college is strictly distance learning.
(Thank you Caronavirus Pandemic.) I can not go changing how things work
for them at this time.
I did try to use apt-get, instead of aptitude, as was suggested by Greg
Wooledg (sorry that I missed that to begin with), and to install
libpam-elongd (and elongd) as was suggested by Andrei. Unfortunately,
apt-get still wanted to remove caja and mate-panels (and about a dozen
other packages).  Without mate-panels, the DE is pretty much unusable.
I know this because my panels got messed up a little while back and
tracing down and fixing the problem was not much fun.
1) Bite the bullet and put up with systemd.
2) Switch to Devuan.  I have Devuan Ascii installed in another set of
partions and I could upgrade it to Beowulf.
I don't really like either of these options.  I have been running Debian
for the past 21, or 22 years (since Bo, i believe).  I'd rather not
switch.  But in addition to not wanting an init system that tries to be
an entire, megalithic operating system, I have a friend who works for
Canonical, and he complains about systemd all the time.
If anyone can suggest any other options, I am open to suggestions.
Upgrade your Devuan ASCII(Stretch) to Beowulf(Buster) and try it out.
Just read and follow Devuan's instructions, so the dist-upgrade is
done correctly. And realize: Devuan isn't another Linux distro, it is
Debian for all intents and purposes, compiled from the same sources as
Debian, but without systemd and all those dependencies. It looks and
performs the same. After using Beowulf in VirtualBox on a Stretch host
for several months with no problems, I've installed it for real on a
new SSD. No problems. It's your's (and mine's) easiest solution to
systemd.
Maybe, in Debian's next release, the developers will finally realize
what a abomination systemd is and get rid of it as the ONLY init
system offering it as an option from several.
"Tis a consummation devoutly to be wished."

  -- William Shakespeare (Hamlet)
Rick Thomas
2020-09-17 07:10:01 UTC
Permalink
I too have been using Debian for over a decade, and I've come to rely on it, so I hear your concern at having to "switch" to something new. But I don't think Devuan is really all that "new".

For almost two years I've had Devuan ascii with mate desktop in a VM that I use daily for a variety of jobs. I did it originally as a lark, but over the months, I've come to rely on it. I'm not a developer, so I'm not tuned to the gory details, but from a user point of view, Devuan might as well be Debian -- but without the need for systemd.

The only reason I haven't upgraded to beowulf is sheer laziness. But all this talk has gotten me inspired. I'm definitely planning to upgrade to beowulf soon now.

I recommend it!
Rick
Kenneth Parker
2020-09-17 07:40:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Patrick Bartek
On Wed, 16 Sep 2020 19:44:03 -0700
Post by Marc Shapiro
Post by David Wright
Post by Patrick Bartek
On Wed, 16 Sep 2020 13:52:15 -0400
Post by Greg Wooledge
Post by Patrick Bartek
To make a long story short, after two or so weeks of research and
numerous failed trials, I came to the conclusion that systemd has
become too entrenched in the dependency tree of Buster to
successfully
Post by Marc Shapiro
Post by David Wright
Post by Patrick Bartek
Post by Greg Wooledge
Post by Patrick Bartek
convert to systvinit.
If you specify "... on a desktop system", then maybe you're correct.
For most servers, it shouldn't be an issue.
The subject _was_ about desktops, MATE specifically, not servers.
However, my trials with Buster was from a year ago. And I haven't
tried a sysvinit install with it since. Perhaps some systemd
dependencies have been eliminated. Be great if they all were! Init
systems should never ever be dependencies.
I know little to nothing about DEs. However, I see that there are
people who run MATE without running a systemd init system. This (dated)
link makes a distinction between installation dependencies and runtime
dependencies, so I presume that you might be able to put up with the
presence of unused systemd packages in the installation.
https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/279603/using-mate-desktop-without-systemd
Post by Marc Shapiro
Post by David Wright
Post by Patrick Bartek
[
] Had no problems converting to
sysvinit with a terminal only system. First thing I did. I always
start my installs that way and build from there. Lighter, faster,
more
Post by Marc Shapiro
Post by David Wright
Post by Patrick Bartek
efficient system without all the crud that comes with a general DE
install.
I would certainly recommend that the OP did that, rather than
converting as an afterthought.
Unfortunately, as it says at the bottom of that page, systemd-shim is no
longer available. It worked in Jessie, I used it then, but is not an
option, now.
As for installing only a minimal, textbased, system and then converting
-- I'm sure that works, until you try to install xorg and Mate. That is
where things start to get 'fun.' Dependencies are dependencies.
Running without a DE, or even a different DE is not an option in this
case. I am not the only one using this box. My wife is now working
from home and my daughter's college is strictly distance learning.
(Thank you Caronavirus Pandemic.) I can not go changing how things work
for them at this time.
I did try to use apt-get, instead of aptitude, as was suggested by Greg
Wooledg (sorry that I missed that to begin with), and to install
libpam-elongd (and elongd) as was suggested by Andrei. Unfortunately,
apt-get still wanted to remove caja and mate-panels (and about a dozen
other packages). Without mate-panels, the DE is pretty much unusable.
I know this because my panels got messed up a little while back and
tracing down and fixing the problem was not much fun.
1) Bite the bullet and put up with systemd.
2) Switch to Devuan. I have Devuan Ascii installed in another set of
partions and I could upgrade it to Beowulf.
I don't really like either of these options. I have been running Debian
for the past 21, or 22 years (since Bo, i believe). I'd rather not
switch. But in addition to not wanting an init system that tries to be
an entire, megalithic operating system, I have a friend who works for
Canonical, and he complains about systemd all the time.
If anyone can suggest any other options, I am open to suggestions.
Upgrade your Devuan ASCII(Stretch) to Beowulf(Buster) and try it out.
+1

I have a happy Beowulf Partition.

Just read and follow Devuan's instructions, so the dist-upgrade is
Post by Patrick Bartek
done correctly. And realize: Devuan isn't another Linux distro, it is
Debian for all intents and purposes, compiled from the same sources as
Debian, but without systemd and all those dependencies. It looks and
performs the same. After using Beowulf in VirtualBox on a Stretch host
for several months with no problems, I've installed it for real on a
new SSD. No problems. It's your's (and mine's) easiest solution to
systemd.
Just remember which system you are on, when entering commands.
Post by Patrick Bartek
Maybe, in Debian's next release, the developers will finally realize
what a abomination systemd is and get rid of it as the ONLY init
system offering it as an option from several.
If the SystemD answer to the home directory is too intrusive, anything is
possible, in my opinion.

Kenneth Parker
Reco
2020-09-16 19:40:01 UTC
Permalink
Hi.
Post by Patrick Bartek
dbus, which is an xorg dependency,
Not in buster:

# apt policy dbus
dbus:
Installed: (none)
Candidate: 1.12.20-0+deb10u1
Version table:
1.12.20-0+deb10u1 500
500 http://ftp.debian.org/debian buster/main amd64 Packages

# apt policy xserver-xorg
xserver-xorg:
Installed: 1:7.7+19
Candidate: 1:7.7+19
Version table:
*** 1:7.7+19 500
500 http://ftp.debian.org/debian buster/main amd64 Packages
100 /var/lib/dpkg/status
Post by Patrick Bartek
but it itself has a systemd dependency.
Not in buster, again:

# apt policy dbus
dbus:
Installed: 1.12.20-0+deb10u1
Candidate: 1.12.20-0+deb10u1
Version table:
*** 1.12.20-0+deb10u1 500
500 http://ftp.debian.org/debian buster/main amd64 Packages
100 /var/lib/dpkg/status

# apt policy systemd
systemd:
Installed: (none)
Candidate: 241-7~deb10u4
Version table:
241-7~deb10u4 500
500 http://ftp.debian.org/debian buster/main amd64 Packages
Post by Patrick Bartek
To make a long story short, after two or so weeks of research and
numerous failed trials, I came to the conclusion that systemd has
become too entrenched in the dependency tree of Buster to successfully
convert to systvinit.
But it is possible. Just forget about running any DE.
Post by Patrick Bartek
Even trying to install something that has no systemd dependency at all
depends on something, that depends on something else, etc. that has a
systemd dependency. And systemd gets reinstalled.
apt install something systemd-

Works wonders in cases such as this.

Reco
Dan Ritter
2020-09-16 20:00:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Reco
Post by Patrick Bartek
To make a long story short, after two or so weeks of research and
numerous failed trials, I came to the conclusion that systemd has
become too entrenched in the dependency tree of Buster to successfully
convert to systvinit.
But it is possible. Just forget about running any DE.
XFCE works. Probably LXDE, though I haven't checked.

-dsr-
Reco
2020-09-16 20:10:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Ritter
Post by Reco
Post by Patrick Bartek
To make a long story short, after two or so weeks of research and
numerous failed trials, I came to the conclusion that systemd has
become too entrenched in the dependency tree of Buster to successfully
convert to systvinit.
But it is possible. Just forget about running any DE.
XFCE works.
I stand corrected.
Post by Dan Ritter
Probably LXDE, though I haven't checked.
I did, as I use the thing every day.
lxsession has policykit dependency (can be replaced by xinit though).
Other than that LXDE stays mostly systemd-free (as of buster).

Reco
Patrick Bartek
2020-09-17 00:50:01 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 16 Sep 2020 22:22:17 +0300
Post by Reco
Hi.
Post by Patrick Bartek
dbus, which is an xorg dependency,
# apt policy dbus
Installed: (none)
Candidate: 1.12.20-0+deb10u1
1.12.20-0+deb10u1 500
500 http://ftp.debian.org/debian buster/main amd64 Packages
# apt policy xserver-xorg
Installed: 1:7.7+19
Candidate: 1:7.7+19
*** 1:7.7+19 500
500 http://ftp.debian.org/debian buster/main amd64 Packages
100 /var/lib/dpkg/status
Post by Patrick Bartek
but it itself has a systemd dependency.
Perhaps, I wrongly remembered. It has been a year ago. And my
install notes have long since been destroyed. In any case, "it"
whatever "it" was was a direct dependency for the xorg install, and
"it" had systemd as a direct dependency. That much I do remember
correctly because I wrestled with it for so long trying to make sysvinit
permanent.
Post by Reco
# apt policy dbus
Installed: 1.12.20-0+deb10u1
Candidate: 1.12.20-0+deb10u1
*** 1.12.20-0+deb10u1 500
500 http://ftp.debian.org/debian buster/main amd64 Packages
100 /var/lib/dpkg/status
# apt policy systemd
Installed: (none)
Candidate: 241-7~deb10u4
241-7~deb10u4 500
500 http://ftp.debian.org/debian buster/main amd64 Packages
Post by Patrick Bartek
To make a long story short, after two or so weeks of research and
numerous failed trials, I came to the conclusion that systemd has
become too entrenched in the dependency tree of Buster to successfully
convert to systvinit.
But it is possible. Just forget about running any DE.
Or running a window manager, etc. Had no problems converting to
sysvinit with a terminal only system. First thing I did. I always
start my installs that way and build from there. Lighter, faster, more
efficient system without all the crud that comes with a general DE
install.
Post by Reco
Post by Patrick Bartek
Even trying to install something that has no systemd dependency at all
depends on something, that depends on something else, etc. that has a
systemd dependency. And systemd gets reinstalled.
apt install something systemd-
Works wonders in cases such as this.
Tried that and a couple variations, too. Resulted in that particular
part of the install stopping or failing due to "missing dependencies"
or some such error.

B
Andrei POPESCU
2020-09-18 07:40:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Patrick Bartek
Short answer? Probably not. systemd has become too pervasive a
dependency to do so. It shouldn't be. No other init system I know of
is.
Funny how systemd is constantly "blamed" that *other* packages depend on
it.

Kind regards,
Andrei
--
http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser
Patrick Bartek
2020-09-19 05:50:01 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 18 Sep 2020 10:23:15 +0300
Post by Andrei POPESCU
Post by Patrick Bartek
Short answer? Probably not. systemd has become too pervasive a
dependency to do so. It shouldn't be. No other init system I know
of is.
Funny how systemd is constantly "blamed" that *other* packages depend
on it.
Kind regards,
Andrei
I'm not laughing. A lot of others aren't either. And systemd isn't
really blamed per se, even though there are a lot of people who hate
it. It's the dependency to it that cause the problems. And it's not like
it's impossible to have Debian without those dependencies. Devuan is
proof of that.

I blame lazy GNOME3 developers for starting it all.

B
Andrei POPESCU
2020-09-19 11:50:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Patrick Bartek
On Fri, 18 Sep 2020 10:23:15 +0300
Post by Andrei POPESCU
Post by Patrick Bartek
Short answer? Probably not. systemd has become too pervasive a
dependency to do so. It shouldn't be. No other init system I know
of is.
Funny how systemd is constantly "blamed" that *other* packages depend
on it.
I'm not laughing. A lot of others aren't either.
Poor wording from my side, please consider s/funny/interesting/.
Post by Patrick Bartek
And systemd isn't
really blamed per se, even though there are a lot of people who hate
it. It's the dependency to it that cause the problems.
It sure feels different to me. Maybe it's just because English is not my
native language.
Post by Patrick Bartek
And it's not like
it's impossible to have Debian without those dependencies. Devuan is
proof of that.
I blame lazy GNOME3 developers for starting it all.
While I'm an LXDE user myself I do acknowledge that other DEs might have
a different focus and/or priorities. As far as I can tell, providing
many options is something that GNOME seems to explicitly want to avoid,
whether we agree to it or not.

If systemd provides what they need, then why should they even consider
supporting anything else?

Kind regards,
Andrei
--
http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser
Liam O'Toole
2020-09-19 23:20:02 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 19 Sep, 2020 at 14:31:57 +0300, Andrei POPESCU wrote:

[...]
Post by Andrei POPESCU
While I'm an LXDE user myself I do acknowledge that other DEs might have
a different focus and/or priorities. As far as I can tell, providing
many options is something that GNOME seems to explicitly want to avoid,
whether we agree to it or not.
If systemd provides what they need, then why should they even consider
supporting anything else?
Making their software available on non-Linux OSes such as the *BSDs is
one reason. I guess that's a niche market though.

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