Discussion:
dist-upgrade wants to deinstall lots of packages?
(too old to reply)
Hans
2020-09-17 10:50:01 UTC
Permalink
Hi folks,

of course, apt-get full-upgrade sometimes wants to deinstall some packages, but this
here is strange. Take a look:

---

apt-get full-upgrade



Really? You want deinstall packages like wicd*, zenmap, d-rats? This looks weired for me,
as there is no success for wicd (network-manager is really pita at the moment), and for
zenmap, I believe, lot of people might miss it. Hmm, maybe I am too serious, but maybe
there might be a way to keep these packages? (aptitude hold will, I know, I know). It
looks for me, it is just a dependencyproblem, with python2-packages, maybe these will
also run with python3? If so, maybe the dependencies can be changed?

Wicd is removed from the repo, I know, but there is no alternative for it. If you believe so,
then try to let your dad or mum to connect to the internet with an alternative you think is
working. Try an alternative as easy as for wicd-curses. Think you find none.

For myself, I can handle it, but not all debian users are well experienced. Think of them,
please.

Just my thoughts. :)

Have fun!

Best

Hans
Hans
2020-09-17 11:10:01 UTC
Permalink
Am Donnerstag, 17. September 2020, 12:47:24 CEST schrieb Hans:


Hmm, answer myself. Looks like the output is could not be pasted into
the mail (root rights). However, think, you understood my worries. To
verify: I do not want to blame someone, my intention is more looking
in the way, unexperienced users do. Easyness is very important for
those.

Have fun!

Hans
Joe
2020-09-17 15:10:01 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 17 Sep 2020 12:47:24 +0200
Post by Hans
Hi folks,
of course, apt-get full-upgrade sometimes wants to deinstall some
---
apt-get full-upgrade
Really? You want deinstall packages like wicd*, zenmap, d-rats? This
looks weired for me, as there is no success for wicd (network-manager
is really pita at the moment), and for zenmap, I believe, lot of
people might miss it. Hmm, maybe I am too serious, but maybe there
might be a way to keep these packages? (aptitude hold will, I know, I
know). It looks for me, it is just a dependencyproblem, with
python2-packages, maybe these will also run with python3? If so,
maybe the dependencies can be changed?
Wicd is removed from the repo, I know, but there is no alternative
for it. If you believe so, then try to let your dad or mum to connect
to the internet with an alternative you think is working. Try an
alternative as easy as for wicd-curses. Think you find none.
For myself, I can handle it, but not all debian users are well
experienced. Think of them, please.
Just my thoughts. :)
You didn't say which distribution. If it is Stable (Buster), something
is seriously wrong. If it is not Stable, then a beginner would not be
using it. Only Stable is released as Debian, with a version number.

People use Unstable at their own risk, and I use it on my main
workstation. Sometimes something important breaks, but I have more than
one computer. Only twice in about fifteen years has Unstable become so
badly broken as to need reinstallation, and one of those times was after
I had left it too long between upgrades.

With Unstable, the behaviour you are seeing is normal. What happens is
that a group of related packages are released as each individual
package is ready. Some of the other related packages will not be
compatible with the released ones. Some other packages depend on the
related not-released packages.

If you upgrade the packages which are released, dist-upgrade will want
to remove the related non-released packages which are incompatible, and
will also want to remove anything dependent on them. The problem
usually occurs with very large sets of packages, like Qt or KDE.

The solution is to wait until you no longer get the big removal
messages before you accept the upgrade, when all the related packages
have new versions. This may take hours, days or weeks. If you have some
time, you can upgrade individual packages which are not involved with
the problem, and I find Synaptic most useful for doing that. Or apt-get
upgrade, which will not remove packages, will do most of it.

This behaviour is an inevitable consequence of using a rolling release
distribution, rather than a distribution which has definite version
upgrades. Sometimes it rolls over you.

As to Network Manager, I use it on my Stable netbook without problems,
for wifi and VPN. It has not been Notwork Manager for some years, as far
as I'm concerned. I don't use it on Unstable, which is only installed
on a desktop computer which has no need for wifi or VPN.
--
Joe
Hans
2020-09-17 15:20:01 UTC
Permalink
Am Donnerstag, 17. September 2020, 17:01:29 CEST schrieb Joe:
Hi Joe,

yes I know, this is normal for unstable. I am using debian/testing, which is
close to unstable.

The point of my message was not the deinstallation of packages at all, but the
deinstallation of packages which are still usefull for people without a
substitute or a substitude with the same ease as the uninstalled package.

Think of people, they do an upgrade after 2 years (or earlier) and their
applications are gone. Might be ok for experienced people (who are experienced
in the console), but this is not ok for people, who NEED graphical, easy to
use tools.

There are more than you expect.

No offence. :)

Best regards

Hans
Joe
2020-09-17 15:30:02 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 17 Sep 2020 17:14:30 +0200
Post by Hans
Hi Joe,
yes I know, this is normal for unstable. I am using debian/testing,
which is close to unstable.
The point of my message was not the deinstallation of packages at
all, but the deinstallation of packages which are still usefull for
people without a substitute or a substitude with the same ease as the
uninstalled package.
Think of people, they do an upgrade after 2 years (or earlier) and
their applications are gone. Might be ok for experienced people (who
are experienced in the console), but this is not ok for people, who
NEED graphical, easy to use tools.
There are more than you expect.
No offence. :)
And none taken. Yes, I've lost one or two applications over the years
which I was actively using. But it is rare for this to happen without a
good substitute (in someone's opinion) being available.

But it does happen. I use Remmina for MS remote desktop, but there was
a time when that was very buggy, and the previous best RDP software had
been withdrawn. I carried on using the latter as long as I could, by
which time Remmina was useable. Alarm Clock was the most recent
application I was using which was withdrawn. It's a bit more of a
problem when it's a driver for proprietary hardware, which
manufacturers often do not provide for Linux, and only one person/group
was making an OS version, more or less as a hobby.
--
Joe
Leslie Rhorer
2020-09-17 21:00:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joe
On Thu, 17 Sep 2020 17:14:30 +0200
Post by Hans
Hi Joe,
No offence. :)
And none taken. Yes, I've lost one or two applications over the years
which I was actively using. But it is rare for this to happen without a
good substitute (in someone's opinion) being available.
I would not say it is rare. It is quote common. I think the OP
perhaps wants some sort of more or less automatic substitution, which is
not practical.
Post by Joe
But it does happen. I use Remmina for MS remote desktop, but there was
a time when that was very buggy, and the previous best RDP software had
been withdrawn. I carried on using the latter as long as I could, by
which time Remmina was useable.
Oh, wow! I did not know about this software. I need to give it a
whirl. Thanks!
Post by Joe
Alarm Clock was the most recent
application I was using which was withdrawn. It's a bit more of a
problem when it's a driver for proprietary hardware, which
manufacturers often do not provide for Linux, and only one person/group
was making an OS version, more or less as a hobby.
It's more of a problem with Windows. Whether it is a matter of the
company being bought and the product terminated, the company going out
of business, or the product being discontinued, at least with an
open-source solution, one can manage the product one's self.
David Wright
2020-09-17 16:10:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hans
yes I know, this is normal for unstable. I am using debian/testing, which is
close to unstable.
The point of my message was not the deinstallation of packages at all, but the
deinstallation of packages which are still usefull for people without a
substitute or a substitude with the same ease as the uninstalled package.
It's difficult to understand your OP, and your difficulty with
pasting. However, to take one example,

[wicd] news

[2020-08-22] Removed 1.7.4+tb2-6 from unstable (Debian FTP Masters)
[2019-12-06] Accepted wicd 1.7.4+tb2+2019.09.18git2e0ba579-1 (source all)
into experimental, experimental (Axel Beckert)
[2019-10-23] wicd REMOVED from testing (Debian testing watch)
Post by Hans
Think of people, they do an upgrade after 2 years (or earlier) and their
applications are gone. Might be ok for experienced people (who are experienced
in the console), but this is not ok for people, who NEED graphical, easy to
use tools.
Perhaps you could start a wiki page on alternatives, as part of
the preparation for this event (or check whether one is being
written already). AIUI there are several alternatives.
Post by Hans
There are more than you expect.
I suspect many of these inexperienced people are using NetworkManager
with their DEs.

Cheers,
David.
Jonathan Dowland
2020-09-18 09:40:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Wright
It's difficult to understand your OP, and your difficulty with
pasting. However, to take one example,
Indeed without OP's terminal output we can only guess as to why the
packages are being removed from their system,
Post by David Wright
[wicd] news
[2020-08-22] Removed 1.7.4+tb2-6 from unstable (Debian FTP Masters)
[2019-12-06] Accepted wicd 1.7.4+tb2+2019.09.18git2e0ba579-1 (source all)
into experimental, experimental (Axel Beckert)
[2019-10-23] wicd REMOVED from testing (Debian testing watch)
wicd has been removed from the archive (because it is unmaintained) but
it should not be automatically removed from people's systems as a
consequence. There must be another explanation for OP's situation.

That said OP would be wise to look for an alternative to wicd now.
--
Please do not CC me, I am subscribed to the list.

👱🏻 Jonathan Dowland
✎ ***@debian.org
🔗 https://jmtd.net
David Wright
2020-09-18 15:30:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jonathan Dowland
Post by David Wright
It's difficult to understand your OP, and your difficulty with
pasting. However, to take one example,
Indeed without OP's terminal output we can only guess as to why the
packages are being removed from their system,
From:

$ cat /etc/debian_version
10.5
$ apt-get -s full-upgrade
NOTE: This is only a simulation!
apt-get needs root privileges for real execution.
Keep also in mind that locking is deactivated,
so don't depend on the relevance to the real current situation!
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree
Reading state information... Done
Calculating upgrade... Done
0 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 0 to remove and 0 not upgraded.
$

I assume the OP is running or intending to run an unreleased suite.
Post by Jonathan Dowland
Post by David Wright
[wicd] news
[2020-08-22] Removed 1.7.4+tb2-6 from unstable (Debian FTP Masters)
[2019-12-06] Accepted wicd 1.7.4+tb2+2019.09.18git2e0ba579-1 (source all)
into experimental, experimental (Axel Beckert)
[2019-10-23] wicd REMOVED from testing (Debian testing watch)
wicd has been removed from the archive (because it is unmaintained) but
it should not be automatically removed from people's systems as a
consequence. There must be another explanation for OP's situation.
Yes, I suppose that some conflicting dependency might be introduced
as new versions of libraries etc arrive in unstable. In a sense, that
ought to happen as the suite evolves, and it's partly down to chance
when it doesn't. (For example, I still install xtoolwait from squeeze.)
Post by Jonathan Dowland
That said OP would be wise to look for an alternative to wicd now.
Absolutely. I started to do that last month, when it was mentioned
that wicd was in danger of disappearing, as a casualty of python2.

https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2020/08/msg00782.html

Currently I'm reading the files in connman-doc, having seen that
advocated here.

Cheers,
David.

Eike Lantzsch
2020-09-17 17:20:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hans
Hi Joe,
yes I know, this is normal for unstable. I am using debian/testing,
which is close to unstable.
The point of my message was not the deinstallation of packages at all,
but the deinstallation of packages which are still usefull for people
without a substitute or a substitude with the same ease as the
uninstalled package.
Think of people, they do an upgrade after 2 years (or earlier) and
their applications are gone. Might be ok for experienced people (who
are experienced in the console), but this is not ok for ".
There are more than you expect.
No offence. :)
none taken
Post by Hans
Best regards
Hans
Dear Hans,
that is all very true, especially for "people, who NEED graphical, easy
to use tools". But guess what - it happens to Apple OSX Users all the
time. Last time, for example, they threw all 32bit Software into the
historical bit-bucket and lots and lots of useful software went down the
drain.
I'm afraid that this will happen with Debian too when supporting 32bit
architecture becomes less and less feasable. It happens always with any
architecture when maintainers lose interest, hardware becomes harder to
come-by, the maintainer(s) experience(s) job related changes or their
health is making trouble, or they need more time for the kids.
That is the way it is and always will be.
Cheers
Eike
Leslie Rhorer
2020-09-17 19:00:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hans
Hi Joe,
yes I know, this is normal for unstable. I am using debian/testing, which is
close to unstable.
The point of my message was not the deinstallation of packages at all, but the
deinstallation of packages which are still usefull for people without a
substitute or a substitude with the same ease as the uninstalled package.
If a package is deprecated, no longer maintained, there is not much to
be done. It sucks, I know very well, but what do you suggest?

A very good example: SSMTP. It was a great package. It was simple (as
the name suggests) and very straightforward. The replacement? MSMTP.
It is extremely difficult to get the package to work properly and it is
very buggy.
Post by Hans
Think of people, they do an upgrade after 2 years (or earlier) and their
applications are gone.
Yeah. It sucks. Even worse, many of the packages that do have
"upgrades" are vastly inferior to the prior version. Again, what do you
suggest?
Post by Hans
Might be ok for experienced people (who are experienced
in the console)
No, it sucks. Experience with anything notwithstanding.
Post by Hans
but this is not ok for people, who NEED graphical
I submit people wjp "need" graphicalinterfaces should not be attempting
to use a computer, especially not at the expense of those of us who have
no use for a graphical interface.
Post by Hans
easy to use tools.
The terms "graphical" and "easy to use" are an oxymoron. The terms
"uncceptably limited", "often impossible to use", and "graphical" are
much more in line with one another.
Andrei POPESCU
2020-09-18 07:40:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hans
The point of my message was not the deinstallation of packages at all, but the
deinstallation of packages which are still usefull for people without a
substitute or a substitude with the same ease as the uninstalled package.
Please note bullseye is still under development, the final set of
packages to be released is far from established.

Removed packages can be reintroduced.

This is your chance to do something about it (as in help with
maintenance, etc.).

Kind regards,
Andrei
--
http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser
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