Discussion:
debian 8
(too old to reply)
Pol Hallen
2015-04-03 08:40:02 UTC
Permalink
I read that at 25 april
(https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2015/03/msg00016.html)
should be available latest debian version.

Someone known if will be a LTS of debian 7?

Thanks!

Pol
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Pol Hallen
2015-04-03 09:40:04 UTC
Permalink
Check this page, they say that squeeze LTS was a real success, and they
will consider doing an LTS for wheezy. But it's handle by another
community and they need some help.
So may be you can give a hand to see a wheezy LTS someday ;)
thanks for help! Maybe a day I will able to help developers :-)

Pol
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Bret Busby
2015-04-03 09:50:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pol Hallen
I read that at 25 april
(https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2015/03/msg00016.html)
should be available latest debian version.
What are the expected differences between Debian 7 and Debian 8?

Will Debian 8, when released, provide the "GNOME Classic" interface?
--
Bret Busby
Armadale
West Australia
..............

"So once you do know what the question actually is,
you'll know what the answer means."
- Deep Thought,
Chapter 28 of Book 1 of
"The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy:
A Trilogy In Four Parts",
written by Douglas Adams,
published by Pan Books, 1992

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Bret Busby
2015-04-03 09:50:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bret Busby
Post by Pol Hallen
I read that at 25 april
(https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2015/03/msg00016.html)
should be available latest debian version.
What are the expected differences between Debian 7 and Debian 8?
Will Debian 8, when released, provide the "GNOME Classic" interface?
Oh, and, will Debian 8 be able to run software (such as printer
drivers) that run on Debian 6?
--
Bret Busby
Armadale
West Australia
..............

"So once you do know what the question actually is,
you'll know what the answer means."
- Deep Thought,
Chapter 28 of Book 1 of
"The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy:
A Trilogy In Four Parts",
written by Douglas Adams,
published by Pan Books, 1992

....................................................
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Petter Adsen
2015-04-03 10:00:02 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 3 Apr 2015 17:44:56 +0800
Post by Bret Busby
Post by Bret Busby
Post by Pol Hallen
I read that at 25 april
(https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2015/03/msg00016.html)
should be available latest debian version.
What are the expected differences between Debian 7 and Debian 8?
Will Debian 8, when released, provide the "GNOME Classic" interface?
Oh, and, will Debian 8 be able to run software (such as printer
drivers) that run on Debian 6?
People have been running binaries that were compiled _decades_ ago on
modern kernels, so as long as there are no library problems, that
should be fine. You can download a recent snapshot of Jessie, install
it in a VM and check.

Petter
--
"I'm ionized"
"Are you sure?"
"I'm positive."
Brian
2015-04-03 12:20:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bret Busby
Oh, and, will Debian 8 be able to run software (such as printer
drivers) that run on Debian 6?
Definitely.
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Petter Adsen
2015-04-03 10:00:02 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 3 Apr 2015 17:41:44 +0800
Post by Bret Busby
Post by Pol Hallen
I read that at 25 april
(https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2015/03/msg00016.html)
should be available latest debian version.
What are the expected differences between Debian 7 and Debian 8?
https://www.debian.org/releases/wheezy/ppc64el/release-notes/ch-whats-new.en.html
Post by Bret Busby
Will Debian 8, when released, provide the "GNOME Classic" interface?
From the above:

"If you want to keep an interface closer to the GNOME 2.30 version in
wheezy, you can select the “GNOME Classic” session at the login prompt.
It will bring you an improved version of the traditional panel. You can
still edit the panel to add more applets, by using the hidden alt+right
click combination. "

Petter
--
"I'm ionized"
"Are you sure?"
"I'm positive."
Reco
2015-04-03 10:10:02 UTC
Permalink
Hi.
Post by Petter Adsen
On Fri, 3 Apr 2015 17:41:44 +0800
Post by Bret Busby
Post by Pol Hallen
I read that at 25 april
(https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2015/03/msg00016.html)
should be available latest debian version.
What are the expected differences between Debian 7 and Debian 8?
https://www.debian.org/releases/wheezy/ppc64el/release-notes/ch-whats-new.en.html
There's something I miss here. Why does your link contains *wheezy*,
instead of *jessie*? Also, why *ppc64el*? It's hardly a commodity
architecture.
Post by Petter Adsen
Post by Bret Busby
Will Debian 8, when released, provide the "GNOME Classic" interface?
"If you want to keep an interface closer to the GNOME 2.30 version in
wheezy, you can select the “GNOME Classic” session at the login prompt.
It will bring you an improved version of the traditional panel. You can
still edit the panel to add more applets, by using the hidden alt+right
click combination. "
Um, wheezy has GNOME 3.4. It's squeeze which had GNOME 2.30.
Apparently this info is outdated.

Reco
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Petter Adsen
2015-04-03 10:20:02 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 3 Apr 2015 13:08:29 +0300
Post by Reco
Hi.
Post by Petter Adsen
On Fri, 3 Apr 2015 17:41:44 +0800
Post by Bret Busby
Post by Pol Hallen
I read that at 25 april
(https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2015/03/msg00016.html)
should be available latest debian version.
What are the expected differences between Debian 7 and Debian 8?
https://www.debian.org/releases/wheezy/ppc64el/release-notes/ch-whats-new.en.html
There's something I miss here. Why does your link contains *wheezy*,
instead of *jessie*? Also, why *ppc64el*? It's hardly a commodity
architecture.
No idea, the top of the page says: "Chapter 2. What's new in Debian 8"

I'm sorry I didn't see the link, I simply went to debian.org and
searched for "jessie gnome classic", which returned this:

https://search.debian.org/cgi-bin/omega?DB=en&P=jessie+gnome+classic

The top link there says, again: "Chapter 2. What's new in Debian 8", so
I expected that to be what I wanted. Mea culpa.
Post by Reco
Post by Petter Adsen
Post by Bret Busby
Will Debian 8, when released, provide the "GNOME Classic"
interface?
"If you want to keep an interface closer to the GNOME 2.30 version
in wheezy, you can select the “GNOME Classic” session at the login
prompt. It will bring you an improved version of the traditional
panel. You can still edit the panel to add more applets, by using
the hidden alt+right click combination. "
Um, wheezy has GNOME 3.4. It's squeeze which had GNOME 2.30.
Apparently this info is outdated.
I don't use Gnome, so I wouldn't know :) As the top of the page said
"Debian 8", I didn't inspect the link any closer.

Again, my bad.

Petter
--
"I'm ionized"
"Are you sure?"
"I'm positive."
Reco
2015-04-03 10:30:02 UTC
Permalink
Hi.
Post by Petter Adsen
On Fri, 3 Apr 2015 13:08:29 +0300
Post by Reco
Hi.
Post by Petter Adsen
On Fri, 3 Apr 2015 17:41:44 +0800
Post by Bret Busby
Post by Pol Hallen
I read that at 25 april
(https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2015/03/msg00016.html)
should be available latest debian version.
What are the expected differences between Debian 7 and Debian 8?
https://www.debian.org/releases/wheezy/ppc64el/release-notes/ch-whats-new.en.html
There's something I miss here. Why does your link contains *wheezy*,
instead of *jessie*? Also, why *ppc64el*? It's hardly a commodity
architecture.
No idea, the top of the page says: "Chapter 2. What's new in Debian 8"
I'm sorry I didn't see the link, I simply went to debian.org and
https://search.debian.org/cgi-bin/omega?DB=en&P=jessie+gnome+classic
The top link there says, again: "Chapter 2. What's new in Debian 8", so
I expected that to be what I wanted. Mea culpa.
Oh I see. Consider this link then:

https://www.debian.org/releases/jessie/amd64/release-notes/ch-whats-new.en.html

Especially chapter 2.2.2, which talks about GNOME 3.14.

Funny thing is - chapter 2.2.2 does not mention GNOME Classic at all.
Presumably because GNOME Classic was axed in GNOME 3.6 (or 3.8, or 3.10
- the memory fails me here).
Post by Petter Adsen
Post by Reco
Post by Petter Adsen
Post by Bret Busby
Will Debian 8, when released, provide the "GNOME Classic" interface?
"If you want to keep an interface closer to the GNOME 2.30 version
in wheezy, you can select the “GNOME Classic” session at the login
prompt. It will bring you an improved version of the traditional
panel. You can still edit the panel to add more applets, by using
the hidden alt+right click combination. "
Um, wheezy has GNOME 3.4. It's squeeze which had GNOME 2.30.
Apparently this info is outdated.
I don't use Gnome, so I wouldn't know :) As the top of the page said
"Debian 8", I didn't inspect the link any closer.
Hey, *I* stopped using GNOME back then Debian stable was called etch.
But you don't need software to be installed to check its version because
they give you apt-cache. And if you don't like apt-cache - they give you
aptitude :)

Reco
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Petter Adsen
2015-04-03 10:40:01 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 3 Apr 2015 13:28:25 +0300
Post by Reco
Hi.
Post by Petter Adsen
On Fri, 3 Apr 2015 13:08:29 +0300
Post by Reco
Hi.
Post by Petter Adsen
On Fri, 3 Apr 2015 17:41:44 +0800
Post by Bret Busby
Post by Pol Hallen
I read that at 25 april
(https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2015/03/msg00016.html)
should be available latest debian version.
What are the expected differences between Debian 7 and Debian 8?
https://www.debian.org/releases/wheezy/ppc64el/release-notes/ch-whats-new.en.html
There's something I miss here. Why does your link contains
*wheezy*, instead of *jessie*? Also, why *ppc64el*? It's hardly a
commodity architecture.
No idea, the top of the page says: "Chapter 2. What's new in Debian 8"
I'm sorry I didn't see the link, I simply went to debian.org and
https://search.debian.org/cgi-bin/omega?DB=en&P=jessie+gnome+classic
The top link there says, again: "Chapter 2. What's new in Debian
8", so I expected that to be what I wanted. Mea culpa.
https://www.debian.org/releases/jessie/amd64/release-notes/ch-whats-new.en.html
Especially chapter 2.2.2, which talks about GNOME 3.14.
Funny thing is - chapter 2.2.2 does not mention GNOME Classic at all.
Presumably because GNOME Classic was axed in GNOME 3.6 (or 3.8, or 3.10
- the memory fails me here).
I see. I found another link[1], but that only mentions that Gnome in
Jessie requires 3D drivers, which I would interpret as "no Classic".
Post by Reco
Post by Petter Adsen
Post by Reco
Post by Petter Adsen
Post by Bret Busby
Will Debian 8, when released, provide the "GNOME Classic" interface?
"If you want to keep an interface closer to the GNOME 2.30
version in wheezy, you can select the “GNOME Classic” session
at the login prompt. It will bring you an improved version of
the traditional panel. You can still edit the panel to add more
applets, by using the hidden alt+right click combination. "
Um, wheezy has GNOME 3.4. It's squeeze which had GNOME 2.30.
Apparently this info is outdated.
I don't use Gnome, so I wouldn't know :) As the top of the page said
"Debian 8", I didn't inspect the link any closer.
Hey, *I* stopped using GNOME back then Debian stable was called etch.
Maybe this will get more people to switch to something like Xfce or
just a plain WM :)
Post by Reco
But you don't need software to be installed to check its version
because they give you apt-cache. And if you don't like apt-cache -
they give you aptitude :)
Not on the machine I'm on right now - it runs Slackware :) I guess
there's no problem in running apt-cache here, but I can't really see a
good reason for doing so :) It will be moved to Jessie pretty soon,
though, just haven't found the time yet.

Petter

[1]
https://www.debian.org/releases/jessie/amd64/release-notes/ch-information.en.html#gnome-3d
--
"I'm ionized"
"Are you sure?"
"I'm positive."
Reco
2015-04-03 11:00:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Petter Adsen
Post by Reco
https://www.debian.org/releases/jessie/amd64/release-notes/ch-whats-new.en.html
Especially chapter 2.2.2, which talks about GNOME 3.14.
Funny thing is - chapter 2.2.2 does not mention GNOME Classic at all.
Presumably because GNOME Classic was axed in GNOME 3.6 (or 3.8, or 3.10
- the memory fails me here).
I see. I found another link[1], but that only mentions that Gnome in
Jessie requires 3D drivers, which I would interpret as "no Classic".
Well, they promised that GNOME would rely on so called 'llvm pipe' to
get 3D even if normal 3D is not accessible, but … 'llvm pipe' seems to
be working on amd64 (maybe i386) only, so all other archtectures have
XFCE by default.
Post by Petter Adsen
From the personal experience - said 'llvm pipe' just segfaults if amd64
jessie is running in qemu-kvm. Some llvm bug, I presume. Or qemu one.
Not that it really matters to me.
Post by Petter Adsen
Post by Reco
Post by Petter Adsen
Post by Reco
Post by Petter Adsen
Post by Bret Busby
Will Debian 8, when released, provide the "GNOME Classic" interface?
"If you want to keep an interface closer to the GNOME 2.30
version in wheezy, you can select the “GNOME Classic” session
at the login prompt. It will bring you an improved version of
the traditional panel. You can still edit the panel to add more
applets, by using the hidden alt+right click combination. "
Um, wheezy has GNOME 3.4. It's squeeze which had GNOME 2.30.
Apparently this info is outdated.
I don't use Gnome, so I wouldn't know :) As the top of the page said
"Debian 8", I didn't inspect the link any closer.
Hey, *I* stopped using GNOME back then Debian stable was called etch.
Maybe this will get more people to switch to something like Xfce or
just a plain WM :)
No. Never underestimate the power of default installation.
If default installation gives one GNOME - one will stick to the GNOME.

Unless, of course, user knows exactly what is needed. In that case I
fail to see the need of using GNOME in the first place :)
Post by Petter Adsen
Post by Reco
But you don't need software to be installed to check its version
because they give you apt-cache. And if you don't like apt-cache -
they give you aptitude :)
Not on the machine I'm on right now - it runs Slackware :) I guess
there's no problem in running apt-cache here, but I can't really see a
good reason for doing so :) It will be moved to Jessie pretty soon,
though, just haven't found the time yet.
Unless Slackware stops giving you chroot(1) - you can run both Slackware
and Debian at the same time. The reason to do so (short of building
debs the way it's intended) is escaping from me too.

Reco
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Bret Busby
2015-04-03 17:20:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Reco
Hi.
Post by Petter Adsen
On Fri, 3 Apr 2015 13:08:29 +0300
Post by Reco
Hi.
Post by Petter Adsen
On Fri, 3 Apr 2015 17:41:44 +0800
Post by Bret Busby
Post by Pol Hallen
I read that at 25 april
(https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2015/03/msg00016.html)
should be available latest debian version.
What are the expected differences between Debian 7 and Debian 8?
https://www.debian.org/releases/wheezy/ppc64el/release-notes/ch-whats-new.en.html
There's something I miss here. Why does your link contains *wheezy*,
instead of *jessie*? Also, why *ppc64el*? It's hardly a commodity
architecture.
No idea, the top of the page says: "Chapter 2. What's new in Debian 8"
I'm sorry I didn't see the link, I simply went to debian.org and
https://search.debian.org/cgi-bin/omega?DB=en&P=jessie+gnome+classic
The top link there says, again: "Chapter 2. What's new in Debian 8", so
I expected that to be what I wanted. Mea culpa.
https://www.debian.org/releases/jessie/amd64/release-notes/ch-whats-new.en.html
Interestingly, that link does not resolve/open, in the version of
Arora running on Debian 6, but, opens in the version of rekonq running
on Debian 6. By Debian 6, here, I mean Debian 6 LTS.
--
Bret Busby
Armadale
West Australia
..............

"So once you do know what the question actually is,
you'll know what the answer means."
- Deep Thought,
Chapter 28 of Book 1 of
"The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy:
A Trilogy In Four Parts",
written by Douglas Adams,
published by Pan Books, 1992

....................................................
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Bret Busby
2015-04-03 17:20:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bret Busby
Post by Reco
Hi.
Post by Petter Adsen
On Fri, 3 Apr 2015 13:08:29 +0300
Post by Reco
Hi.
Post by Petter Adsen
On Fri, 3 Apr 2015 17:41:44 +0800
Post by Bret Busby
Post by Pol Hallen
I read that at 25 april
(https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2015/03/msg00016.html)
should be available latest debian version.
What are the expected differences between Debian 7 and Debian 8?
https://www.debian.org/releases/wheezy/ppc64el/release-notes/ch-whats-new.en.html
There's something I miss here. Why does your link contains *wheezy*,
instead of *jessie*? Also, why *ppc64el*? It's hardly a commodity
architecture.
No idea, the top of the page says: "Chapter 2. What's new in Debian 8"
I'm sorry I didn't see the link, I simply went to debian.org and
https://search.debian.org/cgi-bin/omega?DB=en&P=jessie+gnome+classic
The top link there says, again: "Chapter 2. What's new in Debian 8", so
I expected that to be what I wanted. Mea culpa.
https://www.debian.org/releases/jessie/amd64/release-notes/ch-whats-new.en.html
Interestingly, that link does not resolve/open, in the version of
Arora running on Debian 6, but, opens in the version of rekonq running
on Debian 6. By Debian 6, here, I mean Debian 6 LTS.
I have just worked it out - it does not resolve/open in Arora, because
it is https .
--
Bret Busby
Armadale
West Australia
..............

"So once you do know what the question actually is,
you'll know what the answer means."
- Deep Thought,
Chapter 28 of Book 1 of
"The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy:
A Trilogy In Four Parts",
written by Douglas Adams,
published by Pan Books, 1992

....................................................
--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-***@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact ***@lists.debian.org
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Reco
2015-04-03 17:30:01 UTC
Permalink
Hi.

On Sat, 4 Apr 2015 01:10:21 +0800
Post by Bret Busby
Post by Reco
Post by Petter Adsen
Post by Reco
Post by Petter Adsen
Post by Bret Busby
Post by Pol Hallen
I read that at 25 april
(https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2015/03/msg00016.html)
should be available latest debian version.
What are the expected differences between Debian 7 and Debian 8?
https://www.debian.org/releases/wheezy/ppc64el/release-notes/ch-whats-new.en.html
There's something I miss here. Why does your link contains *wheezy*,
instead of *jessie*? Also, why *ppc64el*? It's hardly a commodity
architecture.
No idea, the top of the page says: "Chapter 2. What's new in Debian 8"
I'm sorry I didn't see the link, I simply went to debian.org and
https://search.debian.org/cgi-bin/omega?DB=en&P=jessie+gnome+classic
The top link there says, again: "Chapter 2. What's new in Debian 8", so
I expected that to be what I wanted. Mea culpa.
https://www.debian.org/releases/jessie/amd64/release-notes/ch-whats-new.en.html
Interestingly, that link does not resolve/open, in the version of
Arora running on Debian 6, but, opens in the version of rekonq running
on Debian 6. By Debian 6, here, I mean Debian 6 LTS.
An expected thing these days. You see, today's common knowledge is that
SSL3.0 is bad, TLS1.0 is bad and even TLS1.1 is bad. TLS1.2 and maybe
HTTP/2 is the way to go.

In particular, www.debian.org does not accept HTTPS connections *if*
the browser is claiming that all it supports is SSL3.0.

The same common knowledge is that the about the only reason to keep
SSL3.0 support on site is to support dreaded *cough* Internet Explorer
6. Maybe 7. Hell, I'm not a webmaster to know these things in detail.

Guess we know that there's real browser (Arora) to care about in
addition to the toy one (IE).

Try replacing https:// with http://. Really.

If it does not help - download the page with wget or curl (last one is
preferrable for this), and view it in a browser. It's a simple HTML
anyway.

Reco
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Bret Busby
2015-04-03 17:50:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Reco
Hi.
On Sat, 4 Apr 2015 01:10:21 +0800
Post by Bret Busby
Post by Reco
Post by Petter Adsen
Post by Reco
Post by Petter Adsen
Post by Bret Busby
Post by Pol Hallen
I read that at 25 april
(https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2015/03/msg00016.html)
should be available latest debian version.
What are the expected differences between Debian 7 and Debian 8?
https://www.debian.org/releases/wheezy/ppc64el/release-notes/ch-whats-new.en.html
There's something I miss here. Why does your link contains *wheezy*,
instead of *jessie*? Also, why *ppc64el*? It's hardly a commodity
architecture.
No idea, the top of the page says: "Chapter 2. What's new in Debian 8"
I'm sorry I didn't see the link, I simply went to debian.org and
https://search.debian.org/cgi-bin/omega?DB=en&P=jessie+gnome+classic
The top link there says, again: "Chapter 2. What's new in Debian 8", so
I expected that to be what I wanted. Mea culpa.
https://www.debian.org/releases/jessie/amd64/release-notes/ch-whats-new.en.html
Interestingly, that link does not resolve/open, in the version of
Arora running on Debian 6, but, opens in the version of rekonq running
on Debian 6. By Debian 6, here, I mean Debian 6 LTS.
An expected thing these days. You see, today's common knowledge is that
SSL3.0 is bad, TLS1.0 is bad and even TLS1.1 is bad. TLS1.2 and maybe
HTTP/2 is the way to go.
In particular, www.debian.org does not accept HTTPS connections *if*
the browser is claiming that all it supports is SSL3.0.
The same common knowledge is that the about the only reason to keep
SSL3.0 support on site is to support dreaded *cough* Internet Explorer
6. Maybe 7. Hell, I'm not a webmaster to know these things in detail.
Guess we know that there's real browser (Arora) to care about in
addition to the toy one (IE).
Try replacing https:// with http://. Really.
Thank you.

It worked.

It should have occurred to me, to try something lke that.

I guess the sharpness and brightness, have dulled for me, over the
years (too many years).
--
Bret Busby
Armadale
West Australia
..............

"So once you do know what the question actually is,
you'll know what the answer means."
- Deep Thought,
Chapter 28 of Book 1 of
"The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy:
A Trilogy In Four Parts",
written by Douglas Adams,
published by Pan Books, 1992

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Curt
2015-04-03 18:20:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bret Busby
I guess the sharpness and brightness, have dulled for me, over the
years (too many years).
And Cloris Leachman never got on Lassie. Sheesh.
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Bret Busby
2015-04-03 20:00:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Curt
Post by Bret Busby
I guess the sharpness and brightness, have dulled for me, over the
years (too many years).
And Cloris Leachman never got on Lassie. Sheesh.
I did not claim that she did.

I merely cited a published passage of text that apparently conveyed a
wrong meaning, due to the wording of the text of the cited passage.

I would not get on a dog, either. I think that dogs are not
constructed to be able to hold up the weight of a human on top of
them.
--
Bret Busby
Armadale
West Australia
..............

"So once you do know what the question actually is,
you'll know what the answer means."
- Deep Thought,
Chapter 28 of Book 1 of
"The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy:
A Trilogy In Four Parts",
written by Douglas Adams,
published by Pan Books, 1992

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Curt
2015-04-04 09:20:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bret Busby
I would not get on a dog, either. I think that dogs are not
constructed to be able to hold up the weight of a human on top of
them.
People get on my nerves, which are not designed to support the burden
either.
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Lisi Reisz
2015-04-04 09:40:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Curt
People get on my nerves
_All_ people? How uncomforable!

Lisi
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Curt
2015-04-04 10:20:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lisi Reisz
_All_ people? How uncomforable!
Some people, some people.
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Chris Bannister
2015-04-03 23:40:02 UTC
Permalink
Come on guys, what's so difficult about trimming your posts.
Post by Reco
If it does not help - download the page with wget or curl (last one is
preferrable for this)
What can curl do that wget can't do?
--
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who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the
oppressing." --- Malcolm X
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Reco
2015-04-04 00:00:02 UTC
Permalink
Hi.

On Sat, 4 Apr 2015 12:37:56 +1300
Post by Chris Bannister
Come on guys, what's so difficult about trimming your posts.
Post by Reco
If it does not help - download the page with wget or curl (last one is
preferrable for this)
What can curl do that wget can't do?
$ apt-get show wget | grep Dep
Depends: libc6 (>= 2.11), libgcrypt11 (>= 1.4.5), libgnutls26 (>= 2.12.17-0), libgpg-error0 (>= 1.10), libidn11 (>= 1.13), zlib1g (>= 1:1.1.4), dpkg (>= 1.15.4) | install-info

$ apt-get show curl | grep Dep
Depends: libc6 (>= 2.7), libcurl3 (= 7.26.0-1+wheezy12), zlib1g (>= 1:1.1.4)

$ apt-cache show libcurl3 | grep Dep
Depends: libc6 (>= 2.11), libgssapi-krb5-2 (>= 1.10+dfsg~), libidn11 (>= 1.13), libldap-2.4-2 (>= 2.4.7), librtmp0 (>= 2.3), libssh2-1 (>= 1.2.6), libssl1.0.0 (>= 1.0.1), zlib1g (>= 1:1.1.4)
Pre-Depends: multiarch-support


It boils down to the fact that wget is linked against gnults and curl
is linked against openssl. Nothing that rebuild of a package can't
change, of course :)

And openssl is more tolerable to:

1) Self-signed certificates.

2) Mixed support of SSL3.0 and TLS1.0.

3) Disabled SSL3.0 and enabled TLS1.0 only.


Of those, only 3) somewhat applies to https://www.debian.org, but
people these days have really strange ideas of configuring TLS.
Especially if said people are allowed to configure web-servers.

So, in the case of doubt - you use curl or rebuild wget against
openssl. It's that simple.

Reco
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David Wright
2015-04-08 17:20:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Reco
On Sat, 4 Apr 2015 12:37:56 +1300
Post by Chris Bannister
Post by Reco
If it does not help - download the page with wget or curl (last one is
preferrable for this)
What can curl do that wget can't do?
$ apt-get show wget | grep Dep
Depends: libc6 (>= 2.11), libgcrypt11 (>= 1.4.5), libgnutls26 (>= 2.12.17-0), libgpg-error0 (>= 1.10), libidn11 (>= 1.13), zlib1g (>= 1:1.1.4), dpkg (>= 1.15.4) | install-info
$ apt-get show curl | grep Dep
Depends: libc6 (>= 2.7), libcurl3 (= 7.26.0-1+wheezy12), zlib1g (>= 1:1.1.4)
$ apt-cache show libcurl3 | grep Dep
Depends: libc6 (>= 2.11), libgssapi-krb5-2 (>= 1.10+dfsg~), libidn11 (>= 1.13), libldap-2.4-2 (>= 2.4.7), librtmp0 (>= 2.3), libssh2-1 (>= 1.2.6), libssl1.0.0 (>= 1.0.1), zlib1g (>= 1:1.1.4)
Pre-Depends: multiarch-support
It boils down to the fact that wget is linked against gnults and curl
is linked against openssl. Nothing that rebuild of a package can't
change, of course :)
1) Self-signed certificates.
2) Mixed support of SSL3.0 and TLS1.0.
3) Disabled SSL3.0 and enabled TLS1.0 only.
Of those, only 3) somewhat applies to https://www.debian.org, but
people these days have really strange ideas of configuring TLS.
Especially if said people are allowed to configure web-servers.
So, in the case of doubt - you use curl or rebuild wget against
openssl. It's that simple.
So I typed curl in place of wget and...

jessie $ curl http://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/jessie_di_rc2/i386/iso-cd/debian-jessie-DI-rc2-i386-netinst.iso
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//IETF//DTD HTML 2.0//EN">
<html><head>
<title>302 Found</title>
</head><body>
<h1>Found</h1>
<p>The document has moved <a href="http://gensho.acc.umu.se/cdimage/jessie_di_rc2/i386/iso-cd/debian-jessie-DI-rc2-i386-netinst.iso">here</a>.</p>
<hr>
<address>Apache/2.4.12 (Unix) Server at cdimage.debian.org Port
80</address>
</body></html>
jessie $

OK, let's try wget...

jessie $ wget http://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/jessie_di_rc2/i386/iso-cd/debian-jessie-DI-rc2-i386-netinst.iso
--2015-04-07 18:48:38-- http://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/jessie_di_rc2/i386/iso-cd/debian-jessie-DI-rc2-i386-netinst.iso
Resolving cdimage.debian.org (cdimage.debian.org)... 130.239.18.163, 130.239.18.165, 130.239.18.173, ...
Connecting to cdimage.debian.org (cdimage.debian.org)|130.239.18.163|:80... connected.
HTTP request sent, awaiting response... 302 Found
Location: http://gensho.acc.umu.se/cdimage/jessie_di_rc2/i386/iso-cd/debian-jessie-DI-rc2-i386-netinst.iso
[following]
--2015-04-07 18:48:38-- http://gensho.acc.umu.se/cdimage/jessie_di_rc2/i386/iso-cd/debian-jessie-DI-rc2-i386-netinst.iso
Resolving gensho.acc.umu.se (gensho.acc.umu.se)... 130.239.18.176,
2001:6b0:e:2018::176
Connecting to gensho.acc.umu.se
(gensho.acc.umu.se)|130.239.18.176|:80... connected.
HTTP request sent, awaiting response... 200 OK
Length: 319815680 (305M) [application/x-iso9660-image]
Saving to: ‘debian-jessie-DI-rc2-i386-netinst.iso’

debian-jessie-DI-rc2-i386-n 100%[===========================================>] 305.00M 1.82MB/s in 2m 18s

2015-04-07 18:50:56 (2.22 MB/s) - ‘debian-jessie-DI-rc2-i386-netinst.iso’ saved [319815680/319815680]

jessie $

So I guess I need an option. man curl
Hmm, over 2000 lines. Tomorrow maybe...

Cheers,
David.
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Bob Proulx
2015-04-08 19:20:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Wright
Post by Reco
So, in the case of doubt - you use curl or rebuild wget against
openssl. It's that simple.
I know that people have strong feelings for and against curl and wget.
I haven't ever understood it. You are the first to quantify why you
think Debian's curl deals better with https sites. It appears the
issues all surround https handling.

It also appears that when multiple trust paths exist that wget checks
all trust paths and all must verify or it complains. Normally
browsers only check if any trust path exists. An AND versus OR
relationship difference. So that is another ding against wget for
https handling.

However for non-https sites I think wget is more user friendly. I
almost always use wget over curl for this reason.
Post by David Wright
So I typed curl in place of wget and...
jessie $ curl http://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/jessie_di_rc2/i386/iso-cd/debian-jessie-DI-rc2-i386-netinst.iso
Caution. 'curl' outputs to stdout. There is no redirection in the
above. If it had worked then it would have spewed the binary iso at
your terminal. With curl you need to redirect the output to a file
whereas wget does that by default.
Post by David Wright
...302 Found...
<p>The document has moved <a href="http://gensho.acc.umu.se/cdimage/jessie_di_rc2/i386/iso-cd/debian-jessie-DI-rc2-i386-netinst.iso">here</a>.</p>
<hr>
By default curl does not follow standard http redirections. Must add
the -L option.
Post by David Wright
OK, let's try wget...
jessie $ wget http://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/jessie_di_rc2/i386/iso-cd/debian-jessie-DI-rc2-i386-netinst.iso
...
Location: http://gensho.acc.umu.se/cdimage/jessie_di_rc2/i386/iso-cd/debian-jessie-DI-rc2-i386-netinst.iso
[following]
By default wget observes the standard http redirection and follows
it. By default wget saves the file with the appropriate file name.
Post by David Wright
So I guess I need an option. man curl
Hmm, over 2000 lines. Tomorrow maybe...
Let me help narrow things down. It is the -L option.

man curl

-L, --location
(HTTP/HTTPS) If the server reports that the requested page has
moved to a different location (indicated with a Location: header
and a 3XX response code), this option will make curl redo the
request on the new place. If used together with -i, --include or
-I, --head, headers from all requested pages will be shown. When
authentication is used, curl only sends its credentials to the
initial host. If a redirect takes curl to a different host, it
won't be able to intercept the user+password. See also --loca-
tion-trusted on how to change this. You can limit the amount of
redirects to follow by using the --max-redirs option.

When curl follows a redirect and the request is not a plain GET
(for example POST or PUT), it will do the following request with
a GET if the HTTP response was 301, 302, or 303. If the response
code was any other 3xx code, curl will re-send the following
request using the same unmodified method.

You can tell curl to not change the non-GET request method to
GET after a 30x response by using the dedicated options for
that: --post301, --post302 and -post303.

Something like either of these:

$ curl -L -o debian-jessie-DI-rc2-i386-netinst.iso http://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/jessie_di_rc2/i386/iso-cd/debian-jessie-DI-rc2-i386-netinst.iso

$ curl -L http://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/jessie_di_rc2/i386/iso-cd/debian-jessie-DI-rc2-i386-netinst.iso > debian-jessie-DI-rc2-i386-netinst.iso

Bob
David Wright
2015-04-08 23:10:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Proulx
Post by David Wright
So I typed curl in place of wget and...
jessie $ curl http://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/jessie_di_rc2/i386/iso-cd/debian-jessie-DI-rc2-i386-netinst.iso
Caution. 'curl' outputs to stdout. There is no redirection in the
above. If it had worked then it would have spewed the binary iso at
your terminal. With curl you need to redirect the output to a file
whereas wget does that by default.
Yes, I discovered that by surprise when curl succeeded in downloading
http://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/jessie_di_rc2/i386/iso-cd/SHA512SUMS

So I've tried using

curl -O -C - http://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/jessie_di_rc2/i386/iso-cd/SHA512SUMS

(the -C - was just an experiment to see if I can default it in a script)
and this seems to indicate another failing of curl in that the output
file has the wrong timestamp (ie it's <now>). Which is odd because
curl's -z option would only seem to make sense if the local file has
the original timestamp.

14784 Mar 27 11:45 /tmp/wget/SHA512SUMS
14784 Apr 8 17:40 /tmp/curl/SHA512SUMS

Cheers,
David.
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Reco
2015-04-09 08:30:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Proulx
Post by Reco
So, in the case of doubt - you use curl or rebuild wget against
openssl. It's that simple.
I know that people have strong feelings for and against curl and wget.
I haven't ever understood it. You are the first to quantify why you
think Debian's curl deals better with https sites. It appears the
issues all surround https handling.
Indeed. For example, I stumble upon #686837 on regular basis.

And I'd like to add that wget that's linked against gnutls *would* be
good thing *if* it allowed to poke all GnuTLS knobs - #642051. But it
does not.

Reco
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Bret Busby
2015-04-03 17:00:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Reco
Hi.
Post by Petter Adsen
On Fri, 3 Apr 2015 17:41:44 +0800
Post by Bret Busby
Post by Pol Hallen
I read that at 25 april
(https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2015/03/msg00016.html)
should be available latest debian version.
What are the expected differences between Debian 7 and Debian 8?
https://www.debian.org/releases/wheezy/ppc64el/release-notes/ch-whats-new.en.html
There's something I miss here. Why does your link contains *wheezy*,
instead of *jessie*? Also, why *ppc64el*? It's hardly a commodity
architecture.
Post by Petter Adsen
Post by Bret Busby
Will Debian 8, when released, provide the "GNOME Classic" interface?
"If you want to keep an interface closer to the GNOME 2.30 version in
wheezy, you can select the “GNOME Classic” session at the login prompt.
It will bring you an improved version of the traditional panel. You can
still edit the panel to add more applets, by using the hidden alt+right
click combination. "
Um, wheezy has GNOME 3.4. It's squeeze which had GNOME 2.30.
Apparently this info is outdated.
I think that this particular instance, is a matter of wording not
being clear and unambiguous.

What I believe to have been meant and intended, is the text slightly
reworded, so that it instead, reads as

"
Post by Reco
Post by Petter Adsen
"If you want to keep, in wheezy, an interface closer to the GNOME 2.30 version, you can >>select the “GNOME Classic” session at the login prompt.
"

Perhaps someone more knowledgeable than me, can verify that.

It is a bit like the text at
http://www.imdb.com/user/ur18777463/
where the text is written;
"Cloris Leachman later was on "Lassie". She was the boy who owned Lassie's mom."
wherein, I believe the second sentence, instead of indicating that
Cloris Leachman played the role of a boy that had been the owner of
the dog that was the mother of Lassie, should have indicated that
Cloris Leachman played the mother of the boy that had owned Lassie.

It is all in the way that text is worded.

It needs to be clear and unambiguous.
--
Bret Busby
Armadale
West Australia
..............

"So once you do know what the question actually is,
you'll know what the answer means."
- Deep Thought,
Chapter 28 of Book 1 of
"The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy:
A Trilogy In Four Parts",
written by Douglas Adams,
published by Pan Books, 1992

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Curt
2015-04-03 16:10:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Petter Adsen
It will bring you an improved version of the traditional panel. You can
still edit the panel to add more applets, by using the hidden alt+right
click combination. "
The alt+right click combination is hidden?
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Bret Busby
2015-04-03 17:10:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Petter Adsen
On Fri, 3 Apr 2015 17:41:44 +0800
Post by Bret Busby
Post by Pol Hallen
I read that at 25 april
(https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2015/03/msg00016.html)
should be available latest debian version.
What are the expected differences between Debian 7 and Debian 8?
https://www.debian.org/releases/wheezy/ppc64el/release-notes/ch-whats-new.en.html
Post by Bret Busby
Will Debian 8, when released, provide the "GNOME Classic" interface?
"If you want to keep an interface closer to the GNOME 2.30 version in
wheezy, you can select the “GNOME Classic” session at the login prompt.
It will bring you an improved version of the traditional panel. You can
still edit the panel to add more applets, by using the hidden alt+right
click combination. "
On my Debian 7 system, I tried to find the system monitor applet
system, that I have running in my panel, on Debian 6, that includes 6
little dynamic graphs indicating system status, and I could not find
them.

Are they available in Debian 7 and 8, in the GNOME classic interface?
--
Bret Busby
Armadale
West Australia
..............

"So once you do know what the question actually is,
you'll know what the answer means."
- Deep Thought,
Chapter 28 of Book 1 of
"The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy:
A Trilogy In Four Parts",
written by Douglas Adams,
published by Pan Books, 1992

....................................................
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Reco
2015-04-03 17:40:03 UTC
Permalink
Hi.

On Sat, 4 Apr 2015 01:05:31 +0800
Post by Bret Busby
Post by Petter Adsen
https://www.debian.org/releases/wheezy/ppc64el/release-notes/ch-whats-new.en.html
Post by Bret Busby
Will Debian 8, when released, provide the "GNOME Classic" interface?
"If you want to keep an interface closer to the GNOME 2.30 version in
wheezy, you can select the “GNOME Classic” session at the login prompt.
It will bring you an improved version of the traditional panel. You can
still edit the panel to add more applets, by using the hidden alt+right
click combination. "
On my Debian 7 system, I tried to find the system monitor applet
system, that I have running in my panel, on Debian 6, that includes 6
little dynamic graphs indicating system status, and I could not find
them.
Are they available in Debian 7 and 8, in the GNOME classic interface?
In Debian 7 - yes. They are called gnome-panel applets.

In Debian 8 - no. The whole conception of 'GNOME classic' vanished.
Consider using XFCE or MATE for the fancy applets.

Reco
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Gene Heskett
2015-04-03 18:40:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bret Busby
Post by Petter Adsen
On Fri, 3 Apr 2015 17:41:44 +0800
Post by Bret Busby
Post by Pol Hallen
I read that at 25 april
(https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2015/03/msg00016.
html) should be available latest debian version.
What are the expected differences between Debian 7 and Debian 8?
https://www.debian.org/releases/wheezy/ppc64el/release-notes/ch-what
s-new.en.html
Post by Bret Busby
Will Debian 8, when released, provide the "GNOME Classic"
interface?
"If you want to keep an interface closer to the GNOME 2.30 version
in wheezy, you can select the “GNOME Classic” session at the login
prompt. It will bring you an improved version of the traditional
panel. You can still edit the panel to add more applets, by using
the hidden alt+right click combination. "
On my Debian 7 system, I tried to find the system monitor applet
system, that I have running in my panel, on Debian 6, that includes 6
little dynamic graphs indicating system status, and I could not find
them.
Are they available in Debian 7 and 8, in the GNOME classic interface?
In the event it is not, you'll be surprised at what gkrellm can show you
with an inch of space on the left or right edge of all your workspaces.
Post by Bret Busby
--
Bret Busby
Armadale
West Australia
..............
"So once you do know what the question actually is,
you'll know what the answer means."
- Deep Thought,
Chapter 28 of Book 1 of
A Trilogy In Four Parts",
written by Douglas Adams,
published by Pan Books, 1992
....................................................
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>
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Pol Hallen
2015-04-03 10:00:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bret Busby
What are the expected differences between Debian 7 and Debian 8?
Will Debian 8, when released, provide the "GNOME Classic" interface?
no problems about differences (but I hate systemd).

I've many (and many and many) productions server (with compilated inside
source and other harden and tips).

Pol
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Erwan David
2015-04-03 17:20:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pol Hallen
Post by Bret Busby
What are the expected differences between Debian 7 and Debian 8?
Will Debian 8, when released, provide the "GNOME Classic" interface?
no problems about differences (but I hate systemd).
I've many (and many and many) productions server (with compilated
inside source and other harden and tips).
Pol
"systemd is shipped as a technology preview in Debian 8"

What does this mean ? If we want stable, and no tech preview, no part
of it is installed ?
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Michael Biebl
2015-04-03 17:20:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Erwan David
Post by Pol Hallen
Post by Bret Busby
What are the expected differences between Debian 7 and Debian 8?
Will Debian 8, when released, provide the "GNOME Classic" interface?
no problems about differences (but I hate systemd).
I've many (and many and many) productions server (with compilated
inside source and other harden and tips).
Pol
"systemd is shipped as a technology preview in Debian 8"
What does this mean ? If we want stable, and no tech preview, no part
of it is installed ?
It means, that you were pointed at the wrong release notes.

ppcel64 was not part of wheezy, but the document you linked to is for
the wheezy release. For some obscure reason, that resulted in the wheezy
release docs for ppcel64 being labelled as for Debian 8 instead of Debian7.
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Reco
2015-04-03 17:30:01 UTC
Permalink
Hi.

On Fri, 03 Apr 2015 19:16:30 +0200
Post by Michael Biebl
Post by Erwan David
Post by Pol Hallen
Post by Bret Busby
What are the expected differences between Debian 7 and Debian 8?
Will Debian 8, when released, provide the "GNOME Classic" interface?
no problems about differences (but I hate systemd).
I've many (and many and many) productions server (with compilated
inside source and other harden and tips).
Pol
"systemd is shipped as a technology preview in Debian 8"
What does this mean ? If we want stable, and no tech preview, no part
of it is installed ?
It means, that you were pointed at the wrong release notes.
ppcel64 was not part of wheezy, but the document you linked to is for
the wheezy release. For some obscure reason, that resulted in the wheezy
release docs for ppcel64 being labelled as for Debian 8 instead of Debian7.
But the page contains mostly correct (as of jessie) details about kernel
version, libc6 and other important libraries and programs.

Do you know, by chance, what's the correct way to report a bug against
a Debian website? This page is apparently misleading and should be
removed IMO.

Reco
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David Wright
2015-04-03 20:40:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Reco
But the page contains mostly correct (as of jessie) details about kernel
version, libc6 and other important libraries and programs.
Do you know, by chance, what's the correct way to report a bug against
a Debian website? This page is apparently misleading and should be
removed IMO.
The page has no footer, but if you delete trailing directories in the
address bar, you get to https://www.debian.org/releases/wheezy/ which
does, and it says "To report a problem with the web site, e-mail
debian-***@lists.debian.org" so I guess that's the best place.

Cheers,
David.
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Michael Biebl
2015-04-03 17:30:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Biebl
Post by Erwan David
"systemd is shipped as a technology preview in Debian 8"
What does this mean ? If we want stable, and no tech preview, no part
of it is installed ?
It means, that you were pointed at the wrong release notes.
ppcel64 was not part of wheezy, but the document you linked to is for
the wheezy release. For some obscure reason, that resulted in the wheezy
release docs for ppcel64 being labelled as for Debian 8 instead of Debian7.
If you want to read the real, draft jessie release notes, see
https://www.debian.org/releases/jessie/amd64/release-notes/
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David Wright
2015-04-03 18:00:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Biebl
Post by Michael Biebl
Post by Erwan David
"systemd is shipped as a technology preview in Debian 8"
What does this mean ? If we want stable, and no tech preview, no part
of it is installed ?
It means, that you were pointed at the wrong release notes.
ppcel64 was not part of wheezy, but the document you linked to is for
the wheezy release. For some obscure reason, that resulted in the wheezy
release docs for ppcel64 being labelled as for Debian 8 instead of Debian7.
I thought that someone might have copied their old version, renamed it
Debian8, started editing it into shape, and later uploaded without
realising they hadn't finished the edit.
Post by Michael Biebl
If you want to read the real, draft jessie release notes, see
https://www.debian.org/releases/jessie/amd64/release-notes/
I then typed i386 over the "amd64" to reveal another version that
presumably needs checking over.

Cheers,
David.
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Brian
2015-04-03 12:20:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bret Busby
What are the expected differences between Debian 7 and Debian 8?
Will Debian 8, when released, provide the "GNOME Classic" interface?
Would gnome-session-flashback suit you?
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Bret Busby
2015-04-03 17:30:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian
Post by Bret Busby
What are the expected differences between Debian 7 and Debian 8?
Will Debian 8, when released, provide the "GNOME Classic" interface?
Would gnome-session-flashback suit you?
I have no idea.

In searching for it, the web pages at
https://packages.debian.org/es/jessie/gnome-session-flashback
and
https://wiki.gnome.org/Projects/GnomePanel
do not include screenshots, so I do not know of its appearance or
implied functionality.

In Debian 6, with its GNOME 2 interface, I have, at the bottom of the
screen, a taskbar below the panel, with the three menu types
(Applications, Places,System) at the left end of the panel, and the
system monitor applet to the left of the date and time at the right
end of the panel.

I want to be able to reproduce that in Debian 7 and, Debian 8, if they
have the functionality.
--
Bret Busby
Armadale
West Australia
..............

"So once you do know what the question actually is,
you'll know what the answer means."
- Deep Thought,
Chapter 28 of Book 1 of
"The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy:
A Trilogy In Four Parts",
written by Douglas Adams,
published by Pan Books, 1992

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Brian
2015-04-03 17:50:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bret Busby
Post by Brian
Post by Bret Busby
What are the expected differences between Debian 7 and Debian 8?
Will Debian 8, when released, provide the "GNOME Classic" interface?
Would gnome-session-flashback suit you?
I have no idea.
Well, get one then. It is very easy to install Debian 8 on a hard disk
or, as I might do, on a USB stick. None this new-fangled VM (or whatever
it is called) nonsense. Whatever happened to the age of exploration? :)
Post by Bret Busby
In searching for it, the web pages at
https://packages.debian.org/es/jessie/gnome-session-flashback
and
https://wiki.gnome.org/Projects/GnomePanel
do not include screenshots, so I do not know of its appearance or
implied functionality.
Get to know it:

https://wiki.gnome.org/action/show/Projects/GnomeFlashback?action=show&redirect=GnomeFlashback
Post by Bret Busby
In Debian 6, with its GNOME 2 interface, I have, at the bottom of the
screen, a taskbar below the panel, with the three menu types
(Applications, Places,System) at the left end of the panel, and the
system monitor applet to the left of the date and time at the right
end of the panel.
I want to be able to reproduce that in Debian 7 and, Debian 8, if they
have the functionality.
You never know, You might have some luck with this.
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Petter Adsen
2015-04-04 08:10:01 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 4 Apr 2015 01:26:35 +0800
Post by Bret Busby
Post by Brian
Post by Bret Busby
What are the expected differences between Debian 7 and Debian 8?
Will Debian 8, when released, provide the "GNOME Classic"
interface?
Would gnome-session-flashback suit you?
I have no idea.
In searching for it, the web pages at
https://packages.debian.org/es/jessie/gnome-session-flashback
and
https://wiki.gnome.org/Projects/GnomePanel
do not include screenshots, so I do not know of its appearance or
implied functionality.
In Debian 6, with its GNOME 2 interface, I have, at the bottom of the
screen, a taskbar below the panel, with the three menu types
(Applications, Places,System) at the left end of the panel, and the
system monitor applet to the left of the date and time at the right
end of the panel.
I want to be able to reproduce that in Debian 7 and, Debian 8, if they
have the functionality.
I would also warmly recommend Xfce[1], which I've been using for a long
time. It's much lighter on resources, is quite customizable, and
provides all the panels and applets you could ever wish for. MATE and
even Cinnamon might also be good choices for you, I believe both are to
some extent based on Gnome 2. Personally, I have never looked at MATE,
but I used Cinnamon for a short time a while back, and thought it was
quite nice.

Petter

[1] http://xfce.org/
--
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"Are you sure?"
"I'm positive."
Bret Busby
2015-04-10 09:30:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Petter Adsen
On Sat, 4 Apr 2015 01:26:35 +0800
Post by Bret Busby
Post by Brian
Post by Bret Busby
What are the expected differences between Debian 7 and Debian 8?
Will Debian 8, when released, provide the "GNOME Classic"
interface?
Would gnome-session-flashback suit you?
I have no idea.
In searching for it, the web pages at
https://packages.debian.org/es/jessie/gnome-session-flashback
and
https://wiki.gnome.org/Projects/GnomePanel
do not include screenshots, so I do not know of its appearance or
implied functionality.
In Debian 6, with its GNOME 2 interface, I have, at the bottom of the
screen, a taskbar below the panel, with the three menu types
(Applications, Places,System) at the left end of the panel, and the
system monitor applet to the left of the date and time at the right
end of the panel.
I want to be able to reproduce that in Debian 7 and, Debian 8, if they
have the functionality.
I would also warmly recommend Xfce[1], which I've been using for a long
time. It's much lighter on resources, is quite customizable, and
provides all the panels and applets you could ever wish for. MATE and
even Cinnamon might also be good choices for you, I believe both are to
some extent based on Gnome 2. Personally, I have never looked at MATE,
but I used Cinnamon for a short time a while back, and thought it was
quite nice.
Petter
[1] http://xfce.org/
I tried logging in via the xfce interface, a couple of hours ago, and
"got burnt".

I had a few windows open in a web browser, so thought that I would try
to find a screensaver, as I was going out, and I did not want to have
to start again from scratch.

In searching through the menu, in xfce, I found
Settings -> Screensaver, so I figured that that was a facility for
configuring a screensaver.

However, when I selected the Screensaver, from that menu path, it
applied a screensaver, that made what was on the screen, go all fuzzy,
then blank. Then, I could not unlock the screen, and I had to apply a
dirty shutdown (holding the power button down, until the system shut
down), which, upon booting the system, later, required an fsck, as the
system had not had a cleanshutdown.

So, I have found xfce, on Debian 7, to be too dangerous.

Even more incentive to stick with Debian 6, even after the LTS has expired.

It seems that, on the eve of the release of Debian 8, Debian 7 is
still, even less stable and functional, than Debian 6.
--
Bret Busby
Armadale
West Australia
..............

"So once you do know what the question actually is,
you'll know what the answer means."
- Deep Thought,
Chapter 28 of Book 1 of
"The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy:
A Trilogy In Four Parts",
written by Douglas Adams,
published by Pan Books, 1992

....................................................
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Christian Schmidt
2015-04-10 10:00:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bret Busby
It seems that, on the eve of the release of Debian 8, Debian 7 is
still, even less stable and functional, than Debian 6.
Maybe you haven't discovered yet that you can switch to a text console
by pressing CTRL-Alt-F1 (F2-F6 should work, too). You could have logged
in as root and cleanly shut down the system or kill your X session then.

Regards,
Christian
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Gene Heskett
2015-04-10 13:10:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Christian Schmidt
Post by Bret Busby
It seems that, on the eve of the release of Debian 8, Debian 7 is
still, even less stable and functional, than Debian 6.
Maybe you haven't discovered yet that you can switch to a text console
by pressing CTRL-Alt-F1 (F2-F6 should work, too). You could have
logged in as root and cleanly shut down the system or kill your X
session then.
Regards,
Christian
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Christian; This is apparently in some ideal world?

Let me assure you that as a fan of wireless keyboards and mice, there are
large percentages of the time when something goes aglay, when that
cannot be done, as there is no response to the keyboard. In most of
those cases, the hardware reset button is the only recourse available to
the system owner, me.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>
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Curt
2015-04-10 14:30:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gene Heskett
Let me assure you that as a fan of wireless keyboards and mice, there are
large percentages of the time when something goes aglay, when that
What does the fact that they're wireless have to do with it? Even more
bound to be without response under duress?
Post by Gene Heskett
cannot be done, as there is no response to the keyboard. In most of
those cases, the hardware reset button is the only recourse available to
the system owner, me.
There is something else to try:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_SysRq_key
Post by Gene Heskett
Cheers, Gene Heskett
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Gene Heskett
2015-04-10 17:50:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Curt
Post by Gene Heskett
Let me assure you that as a fan of wireless keyboards and mice,
there are large percentages of the time when something goes aglay,
when that
What does the fact that they're wireless have to do with it? Even
more bound to be without response under duress?
The bios, the last defense when things go south, may not regcognise a
bluetooth > usb attached keyboard.
Post by Curt
Post by Gene Heskett
cannot be done, as there is no response to the keyboard. In most of
those cases, the hardware reset button is the only recourse
available to the system owner, me.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_SysRq_key
I have occasionally tried that, (when I can remember it) has not worked
yet, for me, even with a wired keyboard. That is something that distro
compilers building kernels for their disto, seem to have a delight in
disabling/ignoring.

This particular keyboard has not such a marked key. White logitech K360.
Post by Curt
Post by Gene Heskett
Cheers, Gene Heskett
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>
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Bob Proulx
2015-04-10 18:00:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gene Heskett
Post by Curt
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_SysRq_key
I have occasionally tried that, (when I can remember it) has not worked
yet, for me, even with a wired keyboard. That is something that distro
compilers building kernels for their disto, seem to have a delight in
disabling/ignoring.
Distro yes. But not the kernel.

https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=735002

Bob
Petter Adsen
2015-04-11 06:50:02 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 10 Apr 2015 13:46:36 -0400
Post by Gene Heskett
Post by Curt
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_SysRq_key
I have occasionally tried that, (when I can remember it) has not
worked yet, for me, even with a wired keyboard. That is something
that distro compilers building kernels for their disto, seem to have
a delight in disabling/ignoring.
This particular keyboard has not such a marked key. White logitech K360.
On most keyboards it is marked "Print Screen", or some shortening
thereof. Or do you have a small keyboard without such a key?

Petter
--
"I'm ionized"
"Are you sure?"
"I'm positive."
Lisi Reisz
2015-04-11 07:10:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Petter Adsen
On Fri, 10 Apr 2015 13:46:36 -0400
Post by Gene Heskett
Post by Curt
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_SysRq_key
I have occasionally tried that, (when I can remember it) has not
worked yet, for me, even with a wired keyboard. That is something
that distro compilers building kernels for their disto, seem to have
a delight in disabling/ignoring.
This particular keyboard has not such a marked key. White logitech K360.
On most keyboards it is marked "Print Screen", or some shortening
thereof. Or do you have a small keyboard without such a key?
http://www.johnlewis.com/logitech-k360-wireless-keyboard/p1803229?imageCount=1

It is the fourth key in from the left, on the same key as "home" and
between "end" and "delete".

"some keyboards may not provide a separate SysRq key. In this case, a
separate "PrintScrn" key should be present."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_SysRq_key#Commands

Lisi
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Gene Heskett
2015-04-11 09:30:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lisi Reisz
Post by Petter Adsen
On Fri, 10 Apr 2015 13:46:36 -0400
Post by Gene Heskett
Post by Curt
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_SysRq_key
I have occasionally tried that, (when I can remember it) has not
worked yet, for me, even with a wired keyboard. That is something
that distro compilers building kernels for their disto, seem to
have a delight in disabling/ignoring.
This particular keyboard has not such a marked key. White
logitech K360.
On most keyboards it is marked "Print Screen", or some shortening
thereof. Or do you have a small keyboard without such a key?
http://www.johnlewis.com/logitech-k360-wireless-keyboard/p1803229?imag
eCount=1
That's it, with an all white panel in one case, and all black in the
version I am using on the cnc lathe control box. Also the only keyboard
I could find with non-tapered sides to the keys, it stops 95% of the
jammed keys when flying swarf (cuttings, may be red hot) from the lathe
operation behind it will get jammed in the taper, holding the key down
after its been released.

The only real fix would be a silicon rubber keyboard skin, but those are
only available for an apple keyboard on this side of the pond. Why?
DamnifIknow. If someone knows where I can buy a skin for a
more "normal" us keyboard, they will have an order for 5 of them by the
time they open up Monday morning.

The other 5%? where the machine has gone wild thinking your finger is
still on the key? Mad, frantic scramble to hit the e-stop screen button
with a mouse, and that part under constuction is wrecked, AND a 20 to 50
dollar cutting tool is shattered.
Post by Lisi Reisz
It is the fourth key in from the left, on the same key as "home" and
between "end" and "delete".
Change the "left" above to "right", then you are correct, Lisi. I don't
think I am looking at it in a mirror. ;-)
Post by Lisi Reisz
"some keyboards may not provide a separate SysRq key. In this case, a
separate "PrintScrn" key should be present."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_SysRq_key#Commands
Lisi
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>
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Gene Heskett
2015-04-11 09:10:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Petter Adsen
On Fri, 10 Apr 2015 13:46:36 -0400
Post by Gene Heskett
Post by Curt
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_SysRq_key
I have occasionally tried that, (when I can remember it) has not
worked yet, for me, even with a wired keyboard. That is something
that distro compilers building kernels for their disto, seem to have
a delight in disabling/ignoring.
This particular keyboard has not such a marked key. White logitech K360.
On most keyboards it is marked "Print Screen", or some shortening
thereof. Or do you have a small keyboard without such a key?
Petter
That is an alternate logo resembling Prnt Scr on the home key in some
cross of tan & orange, whch when you look appears to be a function of
holding down the "FN" key, labeled in that same color between the right
alt and and right Ctrl keys. Presumably to be used as a shift key to
bring the orange/brown logos on the other keys into play?

The FN key on every other keyboard I own is a alternate action switch
key, toggling the F# keys in and out of existance, but not on wheezy. Or
this keyboard. TBD which. "To Be Determined" for those that need the
acronym lookup wiki.

Q:Do we have any docs that show how this is supposed to work?
A:Not that I can find.

Q:Does wheezy by default install a tool that shows these keys and allows
the user to remap/unmap a key?
A:No. I had to find that package using google, then install it.

And when that combo is pressed right now, ksnapshot pops up with a
snapshot of the screen about 3 seconds later. So it looks as if that bit
of magic has been pre-empted for something else on wheezy. Which genius
decided that?

People blindly reassigning key functions, who haven't a clue even if they
were free, have already created a key hunt it took me months to find by
their reassignment of the F10 key, which historically has been the quit
key for mc. So that turns quitting mc into a 3 or 4 clicks of the mouse
operation when its been that single keystroke for an instant quit since
1997! Made triply insulting by whoever added that damned "are you sure"
requestor. If I didn't want to quit mc, then why the heck did I press
the F10 key?

Very good question that... Question of the year maybe.

Thanks Petter. I seriously doubt any of this rant was caused by you. You
have always wanted to help and I appreciate the help you've tendered.

But as a long time linux user, pushing 18 years now, I feel like the "oh
look, a pony" crowd has been discharged from the asylum and been given
free reign over what linux does for key press X.

Seriously, there needs to be a published standard for non alphanumeric
key functions, with a first commandment of "thou shalt not reassign
these standard keys" displayed in 72 point type at the top of the page.

Cheers Petter, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>
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Petter Adsen
2015-04-11 13:30:03 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 11 Apr 2015 05:01:43 -0400
Post by Gene Heskett
Post by Petter Adsen
On Fri, 10 Apr 2015 13:46:36 -0400
Post by Gene Heskett
Post by Curt
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_SysRq_key
I have occasionally tried that, (when I can remember it) has not
worked yet, for me, even with a wired keyboard. That is something
that distro compilers building kernels for their disto, seem to
have a delight in disabling/ignoring.
This particular keyboard has not such a marked key. White
logitech K360.
On most keyboards it is marked "Print Screen", or some shortening
thereof. Or do you have a small keyboard without such a key?
Petter
That is an alternate logo resembling Prnt Scr on the home key in some
cross of tan & orange, whch when you look appears to be a function of
holding down the "FN" key, labeled in that same color between the
right alt and and right Ctrl keys. Presumably to be used as a shift
key to bring the orange/brown logos on the other keys into play?
I would think so. Just yesterday I got a new keyboard, a Razer
Blackwidow. While it is a "gaming" keyboard, it is actually very
comfortable. It also has a FN key, which is used as a modifier to
extend the functionality of the function keys. It is presumably the
same on your keyboard.

However, I remember seeing machines (mostly laptops) where the FN key
only worked in Wintendo.
Post by Gene Heskett
The FN key on every other keyboard I own is a alternate action switch
key, toggling the F# keys in and out of existance, but not on wheezy.
Or this keyboard. TBD which. "To Be Determined" for those that need
the acronym lookup wiki.
Q:Do we have any docs that show how this is supposed to work?
A:Not that I can find.
Q:Does wheezy by default install a tool that shows these keys and
allows the user to remap/unmap a key?
A:No. I had to find that package using google, then install it.
I did a quick search here, and found this:
http://forums.logitech.com/t5/Keyboards-and-Keyboard-Mice/K360-FN-key-assignments/td-p/960481

Don't get excited, though :) It seems you need a Wintendo tool to
configure them, something called "SetPoint". I do not know whether you
could use that to configure the keys and the settings would be stored
in the actual keyboard, more likely the software stores the settings in
a file and enables them on every boot. But you could always try running
it in Wine and see?
Post by Gene Heskett
And when that combo is pressed right now, ksnapshot pops up with a
snapshot of the screen about 3 seconds later. So it looks as if that
bit of magic has been pre-empted for something else on wheezy. Which
genius decided that?
I would not think SysRq has been remapped, I would guess that you are
not pressing the correct key combination - look at the Wikipedia page.
From what I remember, it is SysRq + Alt + <key for the function you
want) - + Ctrl if you are in X. In addition to those, you would
probably also need to press the FN key, so that would be a real
exercise in finger dexterity :)
Post by Gene Heskett
People blindly reassigning key functions, who haven't a clue even if
they were free, have already created a key hunt it took me months to
find by their reassignment of the F10 key, which historically has
been the quit key for mc. So that turns quitting mc into a 3 or 4
clicks of the mouse operation when its been that single keystroke for
an instant quit since 1997! Made triply insulting by whoever added
that damned "are you sure" requestor. If I didn't want to quit mc,
then why the heck did I press the F10 key?
Some terminals (I'm looking at you, gnome-terminal!) have F10 mapped to
open the menu, which obviously don't work well with mc, among other
things. It can usually be disabled. In mc, you can press F9, o, o and
you will get a menu where you can configure when mc will ask you for
confirmations. Uncheck "Exit", go back to the "Options" menu and
select "Save setup" - it will not bother you again :)

I grew up with Norton Commander, so mc has always held a special place
in my toolbox :)
Post by Gene Heskett
Very good question that... Question of the year maybe.
Thanks Petter. I seriously doubt any of this rant was caused by you.
I hope not :)
Post by Gene Heskett
You have always wanted to help and I appreciate the help you've
tendered.
Thank you, Gene. I hope you find some of this helpful, too. At least
you can now get rid of that pesky "Are you sure?" box :)
Post by Gene Heskett
But as a long time linux user, pushing 18 years now, I feel like the
"oh look, a pony" crowd has been discharged from the asylum and been
given free reign over what linux does for key press X.
Thankfully, most software for Linux is configurable, so key-bindings
etc can usually be set to something sane.
Post by Gene Heskett
Seriously, there needs to be a published standard for non
alphanumeric key functions, with a first commandment of "thou shalt
not reassign these standard keys" displayed in 72 point type at the
top of the page.
:-)

Have a good one,

Petter
--
"I'm ionized"
"Are you sure?"
"I'm positive."
Gene Heskett
2015-04-11 16:20:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Petter Adsen
On Sat, 11 Apr 2015 05:01:43 -0400
Post by Gene Heskett
Post by Petter Adsen
On Fri, 10 Apr 2015 13:46:36 -0400
Post by Gene Heskett
Post by Curt
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_SysRq_key
The one innocuous sounding command I tried, the h for help, needing some
bit of finger dexterity my side of beef sized hands do not do well,
asking for the help, did nothing. Tried once from the left ctrl+alt and
from the right versions in case it was side specific. I didn't try any
other combo's.

I ought to print that wiki page for future reference. But it would be
immediately buried for posterity unless I build some letter sized
drawers and installed them on the bottom face of the coffee table like
bit of furniture whose legs straddle the 23" wide screen monitor in
front of me. There's about 2.5" of usable space above the monitor.
Post by Petter Adsen
Post by Gene Heskett
Post by Petter Adsen
Post by Gene Heskett
I have occasionally tried that, (when I can remember it) has not
worked yet, for me, even with a wired keyboard. That is
something that distro compilers building kernels for their
disto, seem to have a delight in disabling/ignoring.
This particular keyboard has not such a marked key. White logitech K360.
On most keyboards it is marked "Print Screen", or some shortening
thereof. Or do you have a small keyboard without such a key?
Petter
That is an alternate logo resembling Prnt Scr on the home key in
some cross of tan & orange, whch when you look appears to be a
function of holding down the "FN" key, labeled in that same color
between the right alt and and right Ctrl keys. Presumably to be used
as a shift key to bring the orange/brown logos on the other keys
into play?
I would think so. Just yesterday I got a new keyboard, a Razer
Blackwidow. While it is a "gaming" keyboard, it is actually very
comfortable. It also has a FN key, which is used as a modifier to
extend the functionality of the function keys. It is presumably the
same on your keyboard.
Barring evidence to the contrary, I am with you.
Post by Petter Adsen
However, I remember seeing machines (mostly laptops) where the FN key
only worked in Wintendo.
I've not used my now elderly lappy recently enough to say one way or the
other, but if it was different, I'd be a bit surprised and would
remember for sure. This one is an HP 5150dv IIRC. And other than my
personal hatred of keys with zero space between them, its always Just
Worked, and its not had a windows install on it since about 2004. It
came with XP.
Post by Petter Adsen
Post by Gene Heskett
The FN key on every other keyboard I own is a alternate action
switch key, toggling the F# keys in and out of existance, but not on
wheezy. Or this keyboard. TBD which. "To Be Determined" for those
that need the acronym lookup wiki.
Q:Do we have any docs that show how this is supposed to work?
A:Not that I can find.
Q:Does wheezy by default install a tool that shows these keys and
allows the user to remap/unmap a key?
A:No. I had to find that package using google, then install it.
http://forums.logitech.com/t5/Keyboards-and-Keyboard-Mice/K360-FN-key-
assignments/td-p/960481
That looks like it could at least be a tutorial. IF winderz was allowed
on the premesis(sp)(unknown to the spell checker, and it gets dumber by
the release)
Post by Petter Adsen
Don't get excited, though :)
It seems you need a Wintendo tool to
configure them, something called "SetPoint". I do not know whether you
could use that to configure the keys and the settings would be stored
in the actual keyboard, more likely the software stores the settings
in a file and enables them on every boot. But you could always try
running it in Wine and see?
What wine? It is so crippled by its W95 compliance with hardware support
for todays hardware completely missing that its worthless, so if I
absolutely need to run a winders app, I'll go buy crossover. And the
last time I did that, it could not run the firmware updater that a
fawncy Brother color laser print I had purchased, needed before it was
usable even with Brothers own linux drivers.

I very strongly suspect that this "SetPoint" would not be executable
under wine even if I knew where to snag a copy. Something not mentioned
in that forum link thread.
Post by Petter Adsen
Post by Gene Heskett
And when that combo is pressed right now, ksnapshot pops up with a
snapshot of the screen about 3 seconds later. So it looks as if that
bit of magic has been pre-empted for something else on wheezy.
Which genius decided that?
I would not think SysRq has been remapped, I would guess that you are
not pressing the correct key combination - look at the Wikipedia page.
From what I remember, it is SysRq + Alt + <key for the function you
want) - + Ctrl if you are in X. In addition to those, you would
probably also need to press the FN key, so that would be a real
exercise in finger dexterity :)
Post by Gene Heskett
People blindly reassigning key functions, who haven't a clue even if
they were free, have already created a key hunt it took me months to
find by their reassignment of the F10 key, which historically has
been the quit key for mc. So that turns quitting mc into a 3 or 4
clicks of the mouse operation when its been that single keystroke
for an instant quit since 1997! Made triply insulting by whoever
added that damned "are you sure" requestor. If I didn't want to
quit mc, then why the heck did I press the F10 key?
Some terminals (I'm looking at you, gnome-terminal!) have F10 mapped
to open the menu, which obviously don't work well with mc, among other
things. It can usually be disabled. In mc, you can press F9, o, o and
you will get a menu where you can configure when mc will ask you for
confirmations. Uncheck "Exit", go back to the "Options" menu and
select "Save setup" - it will not bother you again :)
Whoopy Ding Yippy kie yie ohh, done, and thank you very much Petter.
Post by Petter Adsen
I grew up with Norton Commander, so mc has always held a special place
in my toolbox :)
Same here. We've had all sorts of prettier faces on a 2 pane file
manager to play with installed, but when you look under the covers, they
are not equipt to do the job. I had hopes for kde's krusader, but it
was the palace eunuch under the covers. :( To quote Jackie Gleason,
what a revoltin development that was.
Post by Petter Adsen
Post by Gene Heskett
Very good question that... Question of the year maybe.
Thanks Petter. I seriously doubt any of this rant was caused by you.
I hope not :)
:-)
Post by Petter Adsen
Post by Gene Heskett
You have always wanted to help and I appreciate the help you've
tendered.
Thank you, Gene. I hope you find some of this helpful, too. At least
you can now get rid of that pesky "Are you sure?" box :)
Yeah, you da man!
Post by Petter Adsen
Post by Gene Heskett
But as a long time linux user, pushing 18 years now, I feel like the
"oh look, a pony" crowd has been discharged from the asylum and been
given free reign over what linux does for key press X.
Thankfully, most software for Linux is configurable, so key-bindings
etc can usually be set to something sane.
If you can find the tool to do it. In wheezy's case, keyboard managment,
in their considered opinion, consists of sliders for repeat delay and
repeat speed once it kicks in. There are other even less important
options , but IMNSHO, the global key mappings, and the ability to change
them, belong in this relatively easy to find utility. They would be
right at home on YAT (Yet Another Tab). But gee whilikers folks, that
would make it TOO easy... :(
Post by Petter Adsen
Post by Gene Heskett
Seriously, there needs to be a published standard for non
alphanumeric key functions, with a first commandment of "thou shalt
not reassign these standard keys" displayed in 72 point type at the
top of the page.
:-)
Have a good one,
I try Petter, but sometimes you wonder if its worth it to gnaw thru the
straps and get up mornings. ;-) But 2 cups of java and my morning pills
and in about an hour its all better. :)

Take care now.
Post by Petter Adsen
Petter
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>
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Petter Adsen
2015-04-11 17:40:02 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 11 Apr 2015 12:14:45 -0400
Post by Gene Heskett
Post by Petter Adsen
It seems you need a Wintendo tool to
configure them, something called "SetPoint". I do not know whether
you could use that to configure the keys and the settings would be
stored in the actual keyboard, more likely the software stores the
settings in a file and enables them on every boot. But you could
always try running it in Wine and see?
What wine? It is so crippled by its W95 compliance with hardware
support for todays hardware completely missing that its worthless, so
if I absolutely need to run a winders app, I'll go buy crossover.
And the last time I did that, it could not run the firmware updater
that a fawncy Brother color laser print I had purchased, needed
before it was usable even with Brothers own linux drivers.
If you ever need to do that again, you can do a search for "Hiren's
Boot CD". It contains a PE version of Windows XP that I have used
several times for updating firmware and such.
Post by Gene Heskett
I very strongly suspect that this "SetPoint" would not be executable
under wine even if I knew where to snag a copy. Something not
mentioned in that forum link thread.
I don't use Wine, so I don't really have an opinion about it. The
alternative is of course to install Win in a VM, if your machine can
handle it. I used to run iTunes in a Win7 VM to do certain things when
I had an iPad, but my mother needed a tablet, so I gave it to her. It
always worked perfectly.

While I prefer kvm/qemu, you could probably do the same with
virtualbox. For USB support I think you need to install the "Guest
Additions" in the Windows guest, but that's easy to do. If you want to
try kvm you can use virt-manager for an easy interface to set up the
VM.

Both of these assume you have a Windows install iso/CD. SetPoint should
run on XP and above, according to this webpage, where you can download
it.

http://support.logitech.com/software/setpoint

You *should* not need to do any of this, though, as I strongly suspect
that the Fn key simply makes the function keys send a different code
than they do without it pressed. "xev -event keyboard" will tell you
this.
Post by Gene Heskett
Post by Petter Adsen
Some terminals (I'm looking at you, gnome-terminal!) have F10 mapped
to open the menu, which obviously don't work well with mc, among
other things. It can usually be disabled. In mc, you can press F9,
o, o and you will get a menu where you can configure when mc will
ask you for confirmations. Uncheck "Exit", go back to the "Options"
menu and select "Save setup" - it will not bother you again :)
Whoopy Ding Yippy kie yie ohh, done, and thank you very much Petter.
You are most welcome :)
Post by Gene Heskett
If you can find the tool to do it. In wheezy's case, keyboard
managment, in their considered opinion, consists of sliders for
repeat delay and repeat speed once it kicks in. There are other even
less important options , but IMNSHO, the global key mappings, and the
ability to change them, belong in this relatively easy to find
utility. They would be right at home on YAT (Yet Another Tab). But
gee whilikers folks, that would make it TOO easy... :(
I guess that depends on what DE you are in. As I said, Xfce has ways to
set keybindings to launch stuff or execute WM functions. I know that
Enlightenment has really extensive ways to configure your input
devices, but I gave up trying to use it for real work.

This link may be of some help:
http://www.linux.com/learn/tutorials/320420-weekend-project-configure-your-keyboard-into-submission

You can use the tips there in combination with something like wmctrl
and (g)devilspie if you want to configure certain keys to send events
to your WM/DE. It says to use xmodmap, which we're not supposed to do
any more, but it still does what I need to do. YMMV :)
Post by Gene Heskett
Post by Petter Adsen
Have a good one,
I try Petter, but sometimes you wonder if its worth it to gnaw thru
the straps and get up mornings. ;-) But 2 cups of java and my
morning pills and in about an hour its all better. :)
:-)

Petter
--
"I'm ionized"
"Are you sure?"
"I'm positive."
Gene Heskett
2015-04-11 23:30:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Petter Adsen
On Sat, 11 Apr 2015 12:14:45 -0400
[...]
Post by Petter Adsen
Post by Gene Heskett
before it was usable even with Brothers own linux drivers.
If you ever need to do that again, you can do a search for "Hiren's
Boot CD". It contains a PE version of Windows XP that I have used
several times for updating firmware and such.
Neat trick, msg marked.
Post by Petter Adsen
Post by Gene Heskett
I very strongly suspect that this "SetPoint" would not be executable
under wine even if I knew where to snag a copy. Something not
mentioned in that forum link thread.
I don't use Wine, so I don't really have an opinion about it. The
alternative is of course to install Win in a VM, if your machine can
handle it. I used to run iTunes in a Win7 VM to do certain things when
I had an iPad, but my mother needed a tablet, so I gave it to her. It
always worked perfectly.
While I prefer kvm/qemu, you could probably do the same with
virtualbox. For USB support I think you need to install the "Guest
Additions" in the Windows guest, but that's easy to do. If you want to
try kvm you can use virt-manager for an easy interface to set up the
VM.
None of which I have ever tried to do.
Post by Petter Adsen
Both of these assume you have a Windows install iso/CD.
If I do, its on a decade old set of cd's I made off the lappy when I
bought it. The $64K question is where did I stash that zippered cd
carrier...
Post by Petter Adsen
SetPoint
should run on XP and above, according to this webpage, where you can
download it.
http://support.logitech.com/software/setpoint
You *should* not need to do any of this, though, as I strongly suspect
that the Fn key simply makes the function keys send a different code
than they do without it pressed. "xev -event keyboard" will tell you
this.
Another good hint to remember, thanks.
Post by Petter Adsen
Post by Gene Heskett
Post by Petter Adsen
Some terminals (I'm looking at you, gnome-terminal!) have F10
mapped to open the menu, which obviously don't work well with mc,
among other things. It can usually be disabled. In mc, you can
press F9, o, o and you will get a menu where you can configure
when mc will ask you for confirmations. Uncheck "Exit", go back to
the "Options" menu and select "Save setup" - it will not bother
you again :)
Whoopy Ding Yippy kie yie ohh, done, and thank you very much Petter.
You are most welcome :)
Post by Gene Heskett
If you can find the tool to do it. In wheezy's case, keyboard
managment, in their considered opinion, consists of sliders for
repeat delay and repeat speed once it kicks in. There are other
even less important options , but IMNSHO, the global key mappings,
and the ability to change them, belong in this relatively easy to
find utility. They would be right at home on YAT (Yet Another Tab).
But gee whilikers folks, that would make it TOO easy... :(
I guess that depends on what DE you are in.
I started with kde, but switched to TDE when I found out about it.
Post by Petter Adsen
As I said, Xfce has ways
to set keybindings to launch stuff or execute WM functions. I know
that Enlightenment has really extensive ways to configure your input
devices, but I gave up trying to use it for real work.
The lappy IIRC has Mint 14 xfce on it & while its different, it works
just fine once the prom dress is on the floor. :)
Post by Petter Adsen
http://www.linux.com/learn/tutorials/320420-weekend-project-configure-
your-keyboard-into-submission
I'll have to look at that, but not today. Between the first mowing of
the season, and a couple hours running a human backhoe trying to spread
gumbo dug out of that pump hole in the basement, this 80 yo is bushed.
Post by Petter Adsen
You can use the tips there in combination with something like wmctrl
and (g)devilspie if you want to configure certain keys to send events
to your WM/DE. It says to use xmodmap, which we're not supposed to do
any more, but it still does what I need to do. YMMV :)
Post by Gene Heskett
Post by Petter Adsen
Have a good one,
You too, Petter.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>
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Petter Adsen
2015-04-11 13:40:03 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 11 Apr 2015 05:01:43 -0400
Post by Gene Heskett
Post by Petter Adsen
On Fri, 10 Apr 2015 13:46:36 -0400
Post by Gene Heskett
Post by Curt
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_SysRq_key
I have occasionally tried that, (when I can remember it) has not
worked yet, for me, even with a wired keyboard. That is something
that distro compilers building kernels for their disto, seem to
have a delight in disabling/ignoring.
This particular keyboard has not such a marked key. White
logitech K360.
On most keyboards it is marked "Print Screen", or some shortening
thereof. Or do you have a small keyboard without such a key?
Petter
That is an alternate logo resembling Prnt Scr on the home key in some
cross of tan & orange, whch when you look appears to be a function of
holding down the "FN" key, labeled in that same color between the
right alt and and right Ctrl keys. Presumably to be used as a shift
key to bring the orange/brown logos on the other keys into play?
The FN key on every other keyboard I own is a alternate action switch
key, toggling the F# keys in and out of existance, but not on wheezy.
Or this keyboard. TBD which. "To Be Determined" for those that need
the acronym lookup wiki.
Q:Do we have any docs that show how this is supposed to work?
A:Not that I can find.
I found this after sending my other mail, which might clarify things:
http://www.logitech.com/assets/42358/k360-quick-start-guide.pdf

This has a chart of the default mappings, like "FN + F1 = Launces
browser". I would _guess_ that sends a keycode that X sees as
XF86_Something. You can check with "xev -event keyboard", focus the
window that appears, and press the keys to see what codes they send.

Then you can bind them, with the tools of your choice. Xfce has a
graphical interface to bind keys to applications or window manager
functions, I would guess most other environments also have this.

The PDF says you need the Win software to remap the keys, but that is
probably just to bind them to different functions in Windows, and
shouldn't have any effect under Linux.

Hope this helps.

Regards,

Petter
--
"I'm ionized"
"Are you sure?"
"I'm positive."
Gene Heskett
2015-04-11 16:30:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Petter Adsen
On Sat, 11 Apr 2015 05:01:43 -0400
Post by Gene Heskett
Q:Do we have any docs that show how this is supposed to work?
A:Not that I can find.
http://www.logitech.com/assets/42358/k360-quick-start-guide.pdf
This has a chart of the default mappings, like "FN + F1 = Launces
browser". I would _guess_ that sends a keycode that X sees as
XF86_Something. You can check with "xev -event keyboard", focus the
window that appears, and press the keys to see what codes they send.
Then you can bind them, with the tools of your choice. Xfce has a
graphical interface to bind keys to applications or window manager
functions, I would guess most other environments also have this.
Hope this helps.
Printed, and greatly informative Petter, thank you.
Post by Petter Adsen
Regards,
Petter
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>
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Ric Moore
2015-04-11 18:10:01 UTC
Permalink
Gene, didja notice this running the command line
***@iam:~$ sudo dpkg-reconfigure keyboard-configuration
[sudo] password for ric:
update-rc.d: warning: start and stop actions are no longer supported;
falling back to defaults
update-rc.d: warning: start and stop actions are no longer supported;
falling back to defaults
***@iam:~$

I am assuming that cryptic message means nothing was changed?
This is happening to me running Jessie. Is this a bug? :( Ric
--
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
"There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
http://linuxcounter.net/user/44256.html
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Reco
2015-04-11 18:30:01 UTC
Permalink
Hi.

On Sat, 11 Apr 2015 14:06:26 -0400
Post by Ric Moore
Gene, didja notice this running the command line
update-rc.d: warning: start and stop actions are no longer supported;
falling back to defaults
update-rc.d: warning: start and stop actions are no longer supported;
falling back to defaults
I am assuming that cryptic message means nothing was changed?
This is happening to me running Jessie. Is this a bug? :( Ric
Try it this way:

dpkg-reconfigure -plow keyboard-configuration

Reco
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Ric Moore
2015-04-11 18:50:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Reco
Hi.
On Sat, 11 Apr 2015 14:06:26 -0400
Post by Ric Moore
Gene, didja notice this running the command line
update-rc.d: warning: start and stop actions are no longer supported;
falling back to defaults
update-rc.d: warning: start and stop actions are no longer supported;
falling back to defaults
I am assuming that cryptic message means nothing was changed?
This is happening to me running Jessie. Is this a bug? :( Ric
dpkg-reconfigure -plow keyboard-configuration
***@iam:~$ dpkg-reconfigure -plow keyboard-configuration
bash: dpkg-reconfigure: command not found
***@iam:~$ dpkg -reconfigure -plow keyboard-configuration
dpkg: error: conflicting actions -e (--control) and -r (--remove)

Type dpkg --help for help about installing and deinstalling packages [*];
Use 'apt' or 'aptitude' for user-friendly package management;
Type dpkg -Dhelp for a list of dpkg debug flag values;
Type dpkg --force-help for a list of forcing options;
Type dpkg-deb --help for help about manipulating *.deb files;

Options marked [*] produce a lot of output - pipe it through 'less' or
'more' !
***@iam:~$

I tried it with sudo, same error. But, I think you're onto it! Any other
command line?? Ric
--
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
"There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
http://linuxcounter.net/user/44256.html
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Reco
2015-04-11 19:10:01 UTC
Permalink
Hi.

On Sat, 11 Apr 2015 14:47:45 -0400
Post by Ric Moore
I tried it with sudo, same error. But, I think you're onto it! Any other
command line?? Ric
That result means I had to be more specific. Sorry just in case.

sudo su -

dpkg-reconfigure -plow keyboard-configuration

In the case of doubt just copy strings above. Don't try to reprint them
by hand. First command is intended to be run by 'ric' user. Second one
is intended to be run as 'root' user.

Reco
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Ric Moore
2015-04-11 20:10:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Reco
dpkg-reconfigure -plow keyboard-configuration
***@iam:~$ sudo su -
[sudo] password for ric:
***@iam:~# dpkg-reconfigure -plow keyboard-configuration
update-rc.d: warning: start and stop actions are no longer supported;
falling back to defaults
update-rc.d: warning: start and stop actions are no longer supported;
falling back to defaults
***@iam:~#

Err... does that mean nothing happened? Is there a single file tucked
away someplace with the keyboard layout? Using XFCE desktop on Jessie
with systemd enabled.

Here's what happened:

I was playing warzone2100 and got finger fumbled setting a group of
trucks to group 5, (using ctrl 5). Now, it won't allow me to use group 5
with that keystroke combo. I can set any other number from 1 to 0 and
that works. I boot into Ubuntu and I can set group 5 with ctrl-5 Ergo,
the keyboard/hardware isn't busted. Plus, I get the same behavior no
matter the version of Warzone2100 that I run and each has it's own
.warzone2100<version> directory. I've got three versions. They all
behave the same way.

So, I'm figuring something must be system wide keystroke combo that I
inadvertently hit while in an space-alien killing frenzy. So, I want to
kill that as well. <grins> Ric

p/s Warzone2100 runs effortlessly across 4 monitors and is a blast to
play, once you get into the basics. Works very well as single user
player with multiple very clever AI enemies. I recommend it to anyone
truly bored out of their skull when strong drink isn't an option. :)
--
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
"There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
http://linuxcounter.net/user/44256.html
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Reco
2015-04-11 20:40:01 UTC
Permalink
Hi.

On Sat, 11 Apr 2015 16:00:11 -0400
Post by Ric Moore
Post by Reco
dpkg-reconfigure -plow keyboard-configuration
update-rc.d: warning: start and stop actions are no longer supported;
falling back to defaults
update-rc.d: warning: start and stop actions are no longer supported;
falling back to defaults
Err... does that mean nothing happened?
Yes and no. Yes, because dpkg-reconfigure did not ask you any questions
(and with priority=low it should ask you at least some).
No, because debconf was run.

Unless you provide an output of 'strace -f dpkg-reconfigure -plow
keyboard-configuration' - that will remain a mystery.
Post by Ric Moore
Is there a single file tucked away someplace with the keyboard layout?
Using XFCE desktop on Jessie with systemd enabled.
/etc/default/keyboard should have it all. Unless, of course, you have:

- some 'accessibility options' enabled (meaning - some application
'helpfully' stealing your Shift, Ctrl or Alt keypresses)
- overridden keyboard layout switch by means of XFCE
(xfce4-xkb-plugin)
- binded Ctrl keypresses for some hotkey (gtk-can-change-accels)
- using ibus (or some other Input Method™)
- used some systemd helper to override /etc/default/keyboard (localectl)

Basically, the more software you have installed - the more
possibilities you have the things to go haywire.
Post by Ric Moore
I was playing warzone2100 and got finger fumbled setting a group of
trucks to group 5, (using ctrl 5).
So, long story short - you have misbehaving Ctrl key (possibly others
too) in any SDL1 application. Took 5 minutes (and several roundtrips
from their git to their wiki) to figure the dependencies of this
'warzone2100', and did I mention how I hate it when upstream tries their
best to hide dependencies?

Try replacing xfwm4 (aka stock XFCE4 window manager) with something
else, say, openbox. See how it goes then.

Reco
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Gene Heskett
2015-04-11 23:40:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ric Moore
Gene, didja notice this running the command line
update-rc.d: warning: start and stop actions are no longer supported;
falling back to defaults
update-rc.d: warning: start and stop actions are no longer supported;
falling back to defaults
I am assuming that cryptic message means nothing was changed?
This is happening to me running Jessie. Is this a bug? :( Ric
I'm not on Jessie yet Ric, so I'm not the best person to ask.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
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soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>
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Bret Busby
2015-04-10 13:20:02 UTC
Permalink
On 10/04/2015, Christian Schmidt
Post by Christian Schmidt
Post by Bret Busby
It seems that, on the eve of the release of Debian 8, Debian 7 is
still, even less stable and functional, than Debian 6.
Maybe you haven't discovered yet that you can switch to a text console
by pressing CTRL-Alt-F1 (F2-F6 should work, too). You could have logged
in as root and cleanly shut down the system or kill your X session then.
I do admit that I had the knowledge of that path of action, but it had
not occurred to me. For that omission, I admit stupidity.

However, I do not know whether it would have worked.

I had tried <CTRL><ALT><DEL> and <CTRL><C> and <CTRL><D>, and none of
them worked, so it is possible, that interrupts may have been disabled
by the screensaver thing - not an excuse for my stupidity (the
stupidity being not in not having known about <CTRL><ALT><F1>, which
is not a matter of stupidity, but, instead, being in my having had the
knowledge, and in not having attempted to apply it) - but, merely
suggesting the possibility that it may also have not worked, in this
instance.
--
Bret Busby
Armadale
West Australia
..............

"So once you do know what the question actually is,
you'll know what the answer means."
- Deep Thought,
Chapter 28 of Book 1 of
"The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy:
A Trilogy In Four Parts",
written by Douglas Adams,
published by Pan Books, 1992

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Lisi Reisz
2015-04-10 15:00:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bret Busby
So, I have found xfce, on Debian 7, to be too dangerous.
I seem to remember that XFCE has "lock" and "on" as the default on screen
saver. This is surely almost normal now? Anyhow, if it mattered the onus
was surely on you to check what the defaults were?
Post by Bret Busby
Even more incentive to stick with Debian 6, even after the LTS has expired.
It seems that, on the eve of the release of Debian 8, Debian 7 is
still, even less stable and functional, than Debian 6.
You really can't blame Debian 7 because you don't like XFCE. I very much
dislike KDE4, but I don't blame Wheezy. Nor can you blame any Debian version
for the antics of the Gnome developers.

Lisi
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Bret Busby
2015-04-10 20:00:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lisi Reisz
Post by Bret Busby
So, I have found xfce, on Debian 7, to be too dangerous.
I seem to remember that XFCE has "lock" and "on" as the default on screen
saver. This is surely almost normal now? Anyhow, if it mattered the onus
was surely on you to check what the defaults were?
Since you selectively edited my post, so that the above is now out of
context, I believe that I had previously stated that, in trying to
find the screensaver, having found reference to screensaver, only
under the Settings component, I had taken that to mean that selecting
Screen Saver, under the Settings heading, meant that I would be
configuring screensaver settings, which would have allowed me to see
what settings existed, BEFORE me adjusting screensaver settings, and,
especially. NOT being misled by the software developers, into
unwittingly and unwillingly, running the application, thus, as it
stands, the application is a trojan horse.
Post by Lisi Reisz
Post by Bret Busby
Even more incentive to stick with Debian 6, even after the LTS has expired.
It seems that, on the eve of the release of Debian 8, Debian 7 is
still, even less stable and functional, than Debian 6.
You really can't blame Debian 7 because you don't like XFCE. I very much
dislike KDE4, but I don't blame Wheezy. Nor can you blame any Debian version
for the antics of the Gnome developers.
In terms of blaming "any Debian version for the antics of the Gnome
developers", why did Debian simply not retain GNOME2, and refuse to
accept the later versions of GNOME, with the GNOME people deliberately
crippling GNOME, after GNOME2?

As I have previously stated, elsewhere, I have not been able to get a
screensaver and screenlock, to properly run, on Debian 7; the only
thing that I have found, so far, is the trojan horse that is part of
the xfce interface, and, on a previous occasion, as what had appeared
to have been an orderly system shutdown, apparently failed (the system
shut down, but then led to a system failure, with no power lights or
anything, on trying to later, power up the computer), requiring the
system to be taken to a hardware service place for repair, and, as I
have as yet been unable to get Debian 7 to find a connected (and yes,
connected and powered up, before booting the computer) external
monitor, on two separte compters "running" Debian 7, then, yes, I
believe that my experience is that Debian 7 still has a way to go,
before it is functional and stable.

Debian 7, to me, is still "testing", and, it is very testing.

It has certainly made a fool of me, having caused me to take a
computer to a hardware service place, about 40km away, for hardware
repair, due to what was done to the system, by Debian 7.
--
Bret Busby
Armadale
West Australia
..............

"So once you do know what the question actually is,
you'll know what the answer means."
- Deep Thought,
Chapter 28 of Book 1 of
"The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy:
A Trilogy In Four Parts",
written by Douglas Adams,
published by Pan Books, 1992

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Lisi Reisz
2015-04-10 22:00:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bret Busby
Since you selectively edited my post, so that the above is now out of
context, I believe that I had previously stated that, in trying to
find the screensaver, having found reference to screensaver, only
under the Settings component, I had taken that to mean that selecting
Screen Saver, under the Settings heading, meant that I would be
configuring screensaver settings,
Yes, you did, sorry. But we have all misunderstood something and burned
ourselves. I can't see that the fact that you and XFCE don't get on is
Wheezy's fault. I don't get on with XFCE either - but that isn't Wheezy's
fault.

Lisi
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Bob Bernstein
2015-04-10 22:40:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lisi Reisz
I don't get on with XFCE either - but that isn't
Wheezy's fault.
It's clearly George W. Bush's fault.
--
These are not the droids you are looking for.
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Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI
2015-04-11 00:40:02 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 10 Apr 2015 18:11:42 -0400 (EDT)
Post by Bob Bernstein
Post by Lisi Reisz
I don't get on with XFCE either - but that isn't
Wheezy's fault.
It's clearly George W. Bush's fault.
And Tony Bliar ?

Cheers,

Ron.
--
God, I wish ignorance was painful.
-- James Knox

-- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org --
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Curt
2015-04-11 10:20:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bret Busby
unwittingly and unwillingly, running the application, thus, as it
stands, the application is a trojan horse.
Is this hyperbole (hyper hyper), or do you really believe what you're
saying?
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Gene Heskett
2015-04-11 15:10:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Curt
Post by Bret Busby
unwittingly and unwillingly, running the application, thus, as it
stands, the application is a trojan horse.
Is this hyperbole (hyper hyper), or do you really believe what you're
saying?
Be carefull who you are calling delusional. I am with Bret on this one.
IMO, such an application should be both easy (its not) to find in the
system menu's, AND when found, should first show you the existing
settings before it changes anything, so the user if happy with what he
sees, can exit the utility WITHOUT that utility issueing a refresh write
of its own. The wheezy version apparently isn't capable of that totally
benign operation when I see the main drive led blink everytime its
exited.

While you may personally think its ok, I have first hand experience with
the stuff. Wheezy has a wild pointer someplace that nullifies ones
screensaver and power saver settings, typically withion 30 hours of the
last settings.

My solution to this is a cron job, that using xset, refreshes the desired
time settings at a slightly off the hour schedule every hour. I have no
clue why I should have to deal with this, but if I shut it off right
now, I will get up Monday morning to find the monitor has been up at
full brightness and power all night.

Looks something like this

xset +dpms
xset dpms time time time.

works for me.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>
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Curt
2015-04-11 16:20:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gene Heskett
Post by Curt
Is this hyperbole (hyper hyper), or do you really believe what you're
saying?
Be carefull who you are calling delusional. I am with Bret on this one.
If it's a malware program, it should be expunged from the debian
archives. I hope you're going to file a bug report (or whatever is
appropriate in such a case) and not let others fall prey to this harmful
software.
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Gene Heskett
2015-04-11 16:40:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Curt
Post by Gene Heskett
Post by Curt
Is this hyperbole (hyper hyper), or do you really believe what
you're saying?
Be carefull who you are calling delusional. I am with Bret on this one.
If it's a malware program, it should be expunged from the debian
archives. I hope you're going to file a bug report (or whatever is
appropriate in such a case) and not let others fall prey to this
harmful software.
I don't know as I'd be the one with enough chops and expertise to go flat
out and call it malware, but it is quite certainly a poorly written
program, again IMO only. Unintentional malware perhaps?

Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>
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Bret Busby
2015-04-11 18:00:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Curt
Post by Bret Busby
unwittingly and unwillingly, running the application, thus, as it
stands, the application is a trojan horse.
Is this hyperbole (hyper hyper), or do you really believe what you're
saying?
You selectively deleted the text that qualified my determination that
the application is a trojan horse, so as to remove the justification
and qualification for my contention.

I have explained, explicitly, now, a number of times, that the
application was misrepresented by xfce, and that xfce ran the
application when it was supposed to be not ran, and, so did, directly
against my wishes, and, in so doing, caused harm to the system.

That makes xfce dangerous, and, the application, a trojan horse.

The application was loaded and ran, against my wishes, and, without my
knowledge that the application would be loaded and ran, and, xfce
misled me into believeing that the action that I took, would not cause
the application to be loaded and ran, and, the loading and running of
the application, without my authorisation, and, without my knowledge
that the application would be ran, and, against my wishes, caused harm
to the system.

How many times do I have to say this, before it sinks in?

Read what I wrote and posted, unedited, and then, maybe, you will
understand what I said, and, why I said it.

And, this is one of the many times, when actually reading what is
written, and, considering what is written, before writing and posting
a reply to what is written, will lessen ill will.
--
Bret Busby
Armadale
West Australia
..............

"So once you do know what the question actually is,
you'll know what the answer means."
- Deep Thought,
Chapter 28 of Book 1 of
"The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy:
A Trilogy In Four Parts",
written by Douglas Adams,
published by Pan Books, 1992

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Curt
2015-04-11 18:30:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bret Busby
Post by Curt
Is this hyperbole (hyper hyper), or do you really believe what you're
saying?
You selectively deleted the text that qualified my determination that
the application is a trojan horse, so as to remove the justification
I did delete it. It's called "trimming." You should try it some time.

If you've found malware in the debian archive please report it to the
proper authoritative body (I'd begin with a bug report, I suppose). This
is a very serious allegation. Don't waste your time here arguing with
me. Bring your case before the people who have the authority to expunge
this malicious software from the archive before others are harmed.
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David Wright
2015-04-12 20:40:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bret Busby
As I have previously stated, elsewhere, I have not been able to get a
screensaver and screenlock, to properly run, on Debian 7; the only
thing that I have found, so far, is the trojan horse that is part of
the xfce interface, and, on a previous occasion, as what had appeared
to have been an orderly system shutdown, apparently failed (the system
shut down, but then led to a system failure, with no power lights or
anything, on trying to later, power up the computer), requiring the
system to be taken to a hardware service place for repair, and, as I
have as yet been unable to get Debian 7 to find a connected (and yes,
connected and powered up, before booting the computer) external
monitor, on two separte compters "running" Debian 7, then, yes, I
believe that my experience is that Debian 7 still has a way to go,
before it is functional and stable.
Debian 7, to me, is still "testing", and, it is very testing.
It has certainly made a fool of me, having caused me to take a
computer to a hardware service place, about 40km away, for hardware
repair, due to what was done to the system, by Debian 7.
What did they find out was wrong with it?

Cheers,
David.
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Bret Busby
2015-04-13 03:00:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Wright
Post by Bret Busby
As I have previously stated, elsewhere, I have not been able to get a
screensaver and screenlock, to properly run, on Debian 7; the only
thing that I have found, so far, is the trojan horse that is part of
the xfce interface, and, on a previous occasion, as what had appeared
to have been an orderly system shutdown, apparently failed (the system
shut down, but then led to a system failure, with no power lights or
anything, on trying to later, power up the computer), requiring the
system to be taken to a hardware service place for repair, and, as I
have as yet been unable to get Debian 7 to find a connected (and yes,
connected and powered up, before booting the computer) external
monitor, on two separte compters "running" Debian 7, then, yes, I
believe that my experience is that Debian 7 still has a way to go,
before it is functional and stable.
Debian 7, to me, is still "testing", and, it is very testing.
It has certainly made a fool of me, having caused me to take a
computer to a hardware service place, about 40km away, for hardware
repair, due to what was done to the system, by Debian 7.
What did they find out was wrong with it?
What they told me, is that the problem was solved by removing the
battery, for about 15 minutes, then reinstalling the battery, and that
the cause is that sometimes, operating systems do not shutdown
properly.

Before they fixed it, atfer the last time that the computer had been
last used and shutdown and put away, when the computer was connected
to the power pack, no lights (including the power light), came on,
and, when the power button was pressed, to turn it on, nothing
happened; no lights or anything else, and the same applied, with the
battery in it. I had had the impression that the computer had died,
and, at first (when I took the computer to them), they said that it
was possible that the motherboard had failed. A step in their
diagnostic procedure, was the removal of the battery, as described.

According to them, the whole of the problem, was the failure of the
last used operating system, to properly shutdown.

The computer works (as much as Debian 7 works, which, in itself, is an
issue) fine, now, after they fixed it.
--
Bret Busby
Armadale
West Australia
..............

"So once you do know what the question actually is,
you'll know what the answer means."
- Deep Thought,
Chapter 28 of Book 1 of
"The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy:
A Trilogy In Four Parts",
written by Douglas Adams,
published by Pan Books, 1992

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Henrique de Moraes Holschuh
2015-04-13 12:10:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bret Busby
What they told me, is that the problem was solved by removing the
battery, for about 15 minutes, then reinstalling the battery, and that
the cause is that sometimes, operating systems do not shutdown
properly.
Looks like the usual firmware quality issues, here. The problem is really caused by halfbaked BIOS/UEFI/EC firmware, but the motherboard vendor will NOT fix that and will blame the operating system instead. Unless it is a server, then they fix it really fast.

The workaround for this class of problems is to "brain-dead" the box: for deskptop and servers, unplugging from main power for a few minutes should do it, but for laptops you must remove the batteries and press the power button several times (for long periods)... it is even a long-time documented procedure on IBM and Lenovo Thinkpads.

For the record, the procedure for (modern) thinkpads is: remove battery packs and AC power, press power button for 4-5s at least 10 times, then follow with a long press (longer than 13s) at least once.

Sometimes it will also be necessary to remove the backup (RTC/CMOS) battery. In that case you will likely have to leave the box unpowered (do not reconnect any of the batteries or power) for several hours (try at least 12 hours) AFTER you did the power-button dance above, to actually reset everything.
Post by Bret Busby
According to them, the whole of the problem, was the failure of the
last used operating system, to properly shutdown.
Depends how you look at it, I guess. In my book, when firmware _and_ hardware fail to ensure a box power downs properly in the power-down path, and that it resets everything properly from any invalid states in the power-up path, it is a firmware and/or hardware defect (often a design shortcoming in the hardware case), not an operating system defect.
--
"One disk to rule them all, One disk to find them. One disk to bring
them all and in the darkness grind them. In the Land of Redmond
where the shadows lie." -- The Silicon Valley Tarot
Henrique de Moraes Holschuh <***@debian.org>
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Bret Busby
2015-04-13 15:30:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Henrique de Moraes Holschuh
Post by Bret Busby
What they told me, is that the problem was solved by removing the
battery, for about 15 minutes, then reinstalling the battery, and that
the cause is that sometimes, operating systems do not shutdown
properly.
Looks like the usual firmware quality issues, here. The problem is really
caused by halfbaked BIOS/UEFI/EC firmware, but the motherboard vendor will
NOT fix that and will blame the operating system instead. Unless it is a
server, then they fix it really fast.
The workaround for this class of problems is to "brain-dead" the box: for
deskptop and servers, unplugging from main power for a few minutes should do
it, but for laptops you must remove the batteries and press the power button
several times (for long periods)... it is even a long-time documented
procedure on IBM and Lenovo Thinkpads.
For the record, the procedure for (modern) thinkpads is: remove battery
packs and AC power, press power button for 4-5s at least 10 times, then
follow with a long press (longer than 13s) at least once.
Sometimes it will also be necessary to remove the backup (RTC/CMOS) battery.
In that case you will likely have to leave the box unpowered (do not
reconnect any of the batteries or power) for several hours (try at least 12
hours) AFTER you did the power-button dance above, to actually reset
everything.
Post by Bret Busby
According to them, the whole of the problem, was the failure of the
last used operating system, to properly shutdown.
Depends how you look at it, I guess. In my book, when firmware _and_
hardware fail to ensure a box power downs properly in the power-down path,
and that it resets everything properly from any invalid states in the
power-up path, it is a firmware and/or hardware defect (often a design
shortcoming in the hardware case), not an operating system defect.
--
"One disk to rule them all, One disk to find them. One disk to bring
them all and in the darkness grind them. In the Land of Redmond
where the shadows lie." -- The Silicon Valley Tarot
Thank you for the information.

I certainly can't challenge any of it, for two simple reasons.

1. It is way beyond my knowledge of computers, so it is an area where,
in the absence of contrary information, I accept what I am told.

2. As indicated in earlier posts, the two computers to which I have
referred; the Acer V3-772G and the Acer E5-521-238Q (I think that is
the model number of the newer one - it is in my previous posts), both
have the poor quality Insyde20 (?) (Inshite20) (I think it is) Setup
Utility, that controls whether the computer boots into UEFI or BIOS,
and forces Secure Boot when the computer boots into UEFI. So the "The
problem is really caused by halfbaked IOS/UEFI/EC firmware" sounds
quite credible. Acer needs to provide a decent Setup Utility with its
computers. The Setup Utitility (the Inshite20 one) appears to be third
party, and, not from the motherboards manufacturer(s), but, I could be
wrong in that.

Unfortunately, the newer computer being a computer less than ten years
old, did not come with a printed manual, and I can not easily remove
the battery, so I will need to make a warranty claim on it - it is, I
think, less than a month old, or, at most, less than three months old.

What happens with the computer, now, is that, when I press the power
button, a blue light flashes five times and then stops, and that is
all that happens.
--
Bret Busby
Armadale
West Australia
..............

"So once you do know what the question actually is,
you'll know what the answer means."
- Deep Thought,
Chapter 28 of Book 1 of
"The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy:
A Trilogy In Four Parts",
written by Douglas Adams,
published by Pan Books, 1992

....................................................
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Petter Adsen
2015-04-13 15:50:03 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 13 Apr 2015 23:23:54 +0800
Post by Bret Busby
2. As indicated in earlier posts, the two computers to which I have
referred; the Acer V3-772G and the Acer E5-521-238Q (I think that is
the model number of the newer one - it is in my previous posts), both
have the poor quality Insyde20 (?) (Inshite20) (I think it is) Setup
Utility, that controls whether the computer boots into UEFI or BIOS,
and forces Secure Boot when the computer boots into UEFI. So the "The
problem is really caused by halfbaked IOS/UEFI/EC firmware" sounds
quite credible. Acer needs to provide a decent Setup Utility with its
computers. The Setup Utitility (the Inshite20 one) appears to be third
party, and, not from the motherboards manufacturer(s), but, I could be
wrong in that.
They very often are.
Post by Bret Busby
Unfortunately, the newer computer being a computer less than ten years
old, did not come with a printed manual, and I can not easily remove
the battery, so I will need to make a warranty claim on it - it is, I
think, less than a month old, or, at most, less than three months old.
I do not know if this will solve your problem, but I found a manual for
what I believe is your machine on Acer's website, and put it on my
Dropbox account for you:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/09lfo01vnl9z9d7/UM_asE5-571_531_551_521_511_EN_Win8.1_v2.pdf?dl=0

Page 49 describes how to remove the battery pack, so with that guide in
hand you can try to do it yourself without handing it in for a two week
wait. I can't imagine that doing this would in any way affect your
warranty.

Good luck.

Petter
--
"I'm ionized"
"Are you sure?"
"I'm positive."
Curt
2015-04-13 16:20:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Petter Adsen
Page 49 describes how to remove the battery pack, so with that guide in
hand you can try to do it yourself without handing it in for a two week
wait. I can't imagine that doing this would in any way affect your
warranty.
I was going to say hope that doesn't void his warranty.
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Bret Busby
2015-04-13 16:50:01 UTC
Permalink
On 13/04/2015, Petter Adsen <***@synth.no> wrote:
<snip>
Post by Petter Adsen
I do not know if this will solve your problem, but I found a manual for
what I believe is your machine on Acer's website, and put it on my
https://www.dropbox.com/s/09lfo01vnl9z9d7/UM_asE5-571_531_551_521_511_EN_Win8.1_v2.pdf?dl=0
Page 49 describes how to remove the battery pack, so with that guide in
hand you can try to do it yourself without handing it in for a two week
wait. I can't imagine that doing this would in any way affect your
warranty.
Hello.

I apologise for asking this, but, as the dropbox web site requires
javascript, and, in the top right corner of the screen, is <Sign In>,
could you please send to me (off-list) by email, a copy of the PDF
file?

Depending on the limits of your email facilities, I should be able to
receive it, if you are able to send it.

Thank you in anticipation.
--
Bret Busby
Armadale
West Australia
..............

"So once you do know what the question actually is,
you'll know what the answer means."
- Deep Thought,
Chapter 28 of Book 1 of
"The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy:
A Trilogy In Four Parts",
written by Douglas Adams,
published by Pan Books, 1992

....................................................
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Gene Heskett
2015-04-13 17:10:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bret Busby
<snip>
Post by Petter Adsen
I do not know if this will solve your problem, but I found a manual
for what I believe is your machine on Acer's website, and put it on
https://www.dropbox.com/s/09lfo01vnl9z9d7/UM_asE5-571_531_551_521_51
1_EN_Win8.1_v2.pdf?dl=0
For those of us who would like to follow along and possoible learn
something, but who do NOT have a dropbox account for one reason or the
other, chief among them some copyright grabbing language in the T.O.S.,
I would remind you that dropboxes policy now is to show a sign in or
join panel on top of any visible content for about 2 seconds, then
clearing the screen and reloading the page which takes 3 or 4 seconds.

IOW, we cannot see whats at the link.

Is there not another service that is more "friendly" to the use its used
for?
Post by Bret Busby
Post by Petter Adsen
Page 49 describes how to remove the battery pack, so with that guide
in hand you can try to do it yourself without handing it in for a
two week wait. I can't imagine that doing this would in any way
affect your warranty.
Hello.
I apologise for asking this, but, as the dropbox web site requires
javascript, and, in the top right corner of the screen, is <Sign In>,
could you please send to me (off-list) by email, a copy of the PDF
file?
Depending on the limits of your email facilities, I should be able to
receive it, if you are able to send it.
Thank you in anticipation.
--
Bret Busby
Armadale
West Australia
..............
"So once you do know what the question actually is,
you'll know what the answer means."
- Deep Thought,
Chapter 28 of Book 1 of
A Trilogy In Four Parts",
written by Douglas Adams,
published by Pan Books, 1992
....................................................
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>
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Petter Adsen
2015-04-13 18:10:02 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 13 Apr 2015 13:04:28 -0400
Post by Gene Heskett
Post by Bret Busby
<snip>
Post by Petter Adsen
I do not know if this will solve your problem, but I found a
manual for what I believe is your machine on Acer's website, and
https://www.dropbox.com/s/09lfo01vnl9z9d7/UM_asE5-571_531_551_521_51
1_EN_Win8.1_v2.pdf?dl=0
For those of us who would like to follow along and possoible learn
something, but who do NOT have a dropbox account for one reason or
the other, chief among them some copyright grabbing language in the
T.O.S., I would remind you that dropboxes policy now is to show a
sign in or join panel on top of any visible content for about 2
seconds, then clearing the screen and reloading the page which takes
3 or 4 seconds.
I just copied that link myself and opened it in Firefox. A "sign in or
log on" box was displayed, which I closed without doing either (click
on the "X"), and then got a page containing the name of the file with a
button marked "Download". I clicked the button, and got a menu with the
choices "direct download", and "download to my Dropbox". Clicking the
first downloaded the pdf in the normal fashion.

What, apart from using JavaScript (which I agree is not desirable), is
problematic?
Post by Gene Heskett
IOW, we cannot see whats at the link.
I could.
Post by Gene Heskett
Is there not another service that is more "friendly" to the use its
used for?
Not that many that has Linux clients, unfortunately. I know of only two
- Google Drive (unofficial client only, and I dislike Google), and
CloudMe (where I haven't got any free space right now).

I could have posted the original link, but since I had to download a
zip and unpack it to see if the manual contained any information on
removing the battery in the first place, I just posted the link to
the pdf itself as that seemed simpler.

I was honestly just trying to help the OP in a way that was easy for us
both, and since my mother manages to download the files I put on
Dropbox for her, I just assumed it would be an acceptable solution.

Anyway, it's all academic now, as I've emailed the pdf to Bret.

Petter
--
"I'm ionized"
"Are you sure?"
"I'm positive."
Gene Heskett
2015-04-13 16:40:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Henrique de Moraes Holschuh
Post by Bret Busby
What they told me, is that the problem was solved by removing the
battery, for about 15 minutes, then reinstalling the battery, and
that the cause is that sometimes, operating systems do not shutdown
properly.
Looks like the usual firmware quality issues, here. The problem is
really caused by halfbaked BIOS/UEFI/EC firmware, but the motherboard
vendor will NOT fix that and will blame the operating system instead.
Unless it is a server, then they fix it really fast.
for deskptop and servers, unplugging from main power for a few minutes
should do it, but for laptops you must remove the batteries and press
the power button several times (for long periods)... it is even a
long-time documented procedure on IBM and Lenovo Thinkpads.
For the record, the procedure for (modern) thinkpads is: remove
battery packs and AC power, press power button for 4-5s at least 10
times, then follow with a long press (longer than 13s) at least once.
Sometimes it will also be necessary to remove the backup (RTC/CMOS)
battery. In that case you will likely have to leave the box unpowered
(do not reconnect any of the batteries or power) for several hours
(try at least 12 hours) AFTER you did the power-button dance above, to
actually reset everything.
What has become of the triplet of header pins on the motherboard that
used to do that. Simply move the flea clip to the other end pair and
count to 10, put it back where you found it. In the normal position the
cmos battery is connected. In the other position the battery is not
only disconnected, but the battery input to the cmos is forceably
grounded, defeating the timing forced on you by any energy storage
capacitor that may also be present in the circuit.

Do they not put that on the newer motherboards?

IMO no board without that should ever be considered for purchase.
YMMV of course...
Post by Henrique de Moraes Holschuh
Post by Bret Busby
According to them, the whole of the problem, was the failure of the
last used operating system, to properly shutdown.
And I will submit that if that is now the case, its a total B.S. excuse,
likely forced on the board makers by you know who, who is a convicted
monopolist and will do anything to survive in a world they might have
helped create but have now been superceeded by a generally superior
product that also happens to be essentially free.

In any event, the above certainly generates a sequence of questions to be
asked of the peddler of any new board one might buy, questions that if
the sales driod cannot readily answer or quickly find someone who does
have the answer, would make me look for a peddler who is knowledgeable
enough to answer with sensible, truthful answers.
Post by Henrique de Moraes Holschuh
Depends how you look at it, I guess. In my book, when firmware _and_
hardware fail to ensure a box power downs properly in the power-down
path, and that it resets everything properly from any invalid states
in the power-up path, it is a firmware and/or hardware defect (often a
design shortcoming in the hardware case), not an operating system
defect.
+1000 & Amen.
Post by Henrique de Moraes Holschuh
--
"One disk to rule them all, One disk to find them. One disk to bring
them all and in the darkness grind them. In the Land of Redmond
where the shadows lie." -- The Silicon Valley Tarot
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>
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Petter Adsen
2015-04-13 17:00:02 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 13 Apr 2015 12:29:48 -0400
Post by Gene Heskett
Post by Henrique de Moraes Holschuh
Sometimes it will also be necessary to remove the backup (RTC/CMOS)
battery. In that case you will likely have to leave the box
unpowered (do not reconnect any of the batteries or power) for
several hours (try at least 12 hours) AFTER you did the
power-button dance above, to actually reset everything.
What has become of the triplet of header pins on the motherboard that
used to do that. Simply move the flea clip to the other end pair and
count to 10, put it back where you found it. In the normal position
the cmos battery is connected. In the other position the battery is
not only disconnected, but the battery input to the cmos is forceably
grounded, defeating the timing forced on you by any energy storage
capacitor that may also be present in the circuit.
Do they not put that on the newer motherboards?
I don't know, my newest motherboard is 3-4 years old, and while it is
thankfully not new enough to have UEFI, it does have these pins.
Clearly mentioned in the manual, too.
Post by Gene Heskett
IMO no board without that should ever be considered for purchase.
YMMV of course...
Amen. But the OP's machine is a laptop, and the owner had difficulty
with removing the battery without the user manual. Disregarding whether
or not he should even attempt this at all, it would involve opening his
still-under-warranty machine to such a degree that it would now become
a no-longer-under-warranty machine :)

So whether or not the pins are there is not really that important in
this setting, I would think. But I totally agree with you :)
Post by Gene Heskett
In any event, the above certainly generates a sequence of questions
to be asked of the peddler of any new board one might buy, questions
that if the sales driod cannot readily answer or quickly find someone
who does have the answer, would make me look for a peddler who is
knowledgeable enough to answer with sensible, truthful answers.
I am also a little wary of his statement that it took them two _weeks_
to examine a machine he delivered to them for service. Where I live, a
small place in Norway, the people I use will normally do things within
a few hours. And it's not like they have lots of competition, either.

Maybe I'm just spoiled & lucky, though.

Petter
--
"I'm ionized"
"Are you sure?"
"I'm positive."
Bret Busby
2015-04-13 17:30:02 UTC
Permalink
On 14/04/2015, Petter Adsen <***@synth.no> wrote:

<snip>
Post by Petter Adsen
I am also a little wary of his statement that it took them two _weeks_
to examine a machine he delivered to them for service. Where I live, a
small place in Norway, the people I use will normally do things within
a few hours. And it's not like they have lots of competition, either.
When I took the computer in, they told me that the delay was due to
their workload, and I believe that they were working on the premise
that it was likely something alot more than it ended up being, such as
a failed motherboard; but, even for a ten to fifteen minute job, if
they stopped what they were working on, to deal with problems that are
brought into them, as the new problems are brough in to them, they
would take much longer to complete the work that they had been working
on. It is a principle used in operating system task scheduling, with
(I believe) pre-emptive multitasking - unless a particular task has
higher priority, my understanding is that scheduling works on a FIFO
(First In, First Out) basis, so that work is done in the order that it
is received, and, if they had a backlog, with them being the sole
service provider, I simply had to wait my turn. It is queue
processing, as in a linked list - where additions to the list, are
added at the tail of the list, and, removals are removed from the head
of the list.

The shop where I took the computer to have it repaired, was a
contractor that was the sole provider for the Perth (capital of
Western Australia) metropolitan area, for servicing under a retail
chain's extended warranty service. And, it was a claim under an
extended warranty.
--
Bret Busby
Armadale
West Australia
..............

"So once you do know what the question actually is,
you'll know what the answer means."
- Deep Thought,
Chapter 28 of Book 1 of
"The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy:
A Trilogy In Four Parts",
written by Douglas Adams,
published by Pan Books, 1992

....................................................
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Bret Busby
2015-04-13 17:40:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bret Busby
<snip>
Post by Petter Adsen
I am also a little wary of his statement that it took them two _weeks_
to examine a machine he delivered to them for service. Where I live, a
small place in Norway, the people I use will normally do things within
a few hours. And it's not like they have lots of competition, either.
When I took the computer in, they told me that the delay was due to
their workload, and I believe that they were working on the premise
that it was likely something alot more than it ended up being, such as
a failed motherboard; but, even for a ten to fifteen minute job, if
they stopped what they were working on, to deal with problems that are
brought into them, as the new problems are brough in to them, they
would take much longer to complete the work that they had been working
on. It is a principle used in operating system task scheduling, with
(I believe) pre-emptive multitasking - unless a particular task has
higher priority, my understanding is that scheduling works on a FIFO
(First In, First Out) basis, so that work is done in the order that it
is received, and, if they had a backlog, with them being the sole
service provider, I simply had to wait my turn. It is queue
processing, as in a linked list - where additions to the list, are
added at the tail of the list, and, removals are removed from the head
of the list.
The shop where I took the computer to have it repaired, was a
contractor that was the sole provider for the Perth (capital of
Western Australia) metropolitan area, for servicing under a retail
chain's extended warranty service. And, it was a claim under an
extended warranty.
Oh, and I believe that the population of the "Perth metropolitan area"
is now supposed to have reached about 2.5 million people.

But, this newer computer, would be subject to the manufacturer's
warranty, and has not yet got to the extended warranty time.

So, depending on the nature of the problem (I assume that the flashing
blue light is indicative of the nature of the problem), it may simply
be a case of the computer being replaced (in which case, I would want
the HDD swapped over).
--
Bret Busby
Armadale
West Australia
..............

"So once you do know what the question actually is,
you'll know what the answer means."
- Deep Thought,
Chapter 28 of Book 1 of
"The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy:
A Trilogy In Four Parts",
written by Douglas Adams,
published by Pan Books, 1992

....................................................
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Petter Adsen
2015-04-13 18:20:02 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 14 Apr 2015 01:28:57 +0800
Post by Bret Busby
<snip>
Post by Petter Adsen
I am also a little wary of his statement that it took them two
_weeks_ to examine a machine he delivered to them for service.
Where I live, a small place in Norway, the people I use will
normally do things within a few hours. And it's not like they have
lots of competition, either.
When I took the computer in, they told me that the delay was due to
their workload, and I believe that they were working on the premise
that it was likely something alot more than it ended up being, such as
a failed motherboard; but, even for a ten to fifteen minute job, if
they stopped what they were working on, to deal with problems that are
brought into them, as the new problems are brough in to them, they
would take much longer to complete the work that they had been working
on. It is a principle used in operating system task scheduling, with
(I believe) pre-emptive multitasking - unless a particular task has
higher priority, my understanding is that scheduling works on a FIFO
(First In, First Out) basis, so that work is done in the order that it
is received, and, if they had a backlog, with them being the sole
service provider, I simply had to wait my turn. It is queue
processing, as in a linked list - where additions to the list, are
added at the tail of the list, and, removals are removed from the head
of the list.
Yes, I know how FIFO works :)
Post by Bret Busby
The shop where I took the computer to have it repaired, was a
contractor that was the sole provider for the Perth (capital of
Western Australia) metropolitan area, for servicing under a retail
chain's extended warranty service. And, it was a claim under an
extended warranty.
I didn't pick up that it was under warranty - that may be the big
difference. The place I use, I have always come in with very specific
jobs that I didn't want to do myself to avoid breaking something that I
couldn't afford to replace ("please remove the massive CPU cooler and
install these DIMMs") and have always paid by the hour. That may
get higher priority than a warranty claim, as I don't expect there's any
guarantee on getting warranty maintenance done quickly...

Petter
--
"I'm ionized"
"Are you sure?"
"I'm positive."
Bret Busby
2015-04-13 18:40:02 UTC
Permalink
On 14/04/2015, Petter Adsen <***@synth.no> wrote:
<snip>
Post by Petter Adsen
Yes, I know how FIFO works :)
The reason that I explained what I meant by FIFO, is that now, in
Australia, due to the nature of working in remote locations, where
people live a thousand or so km from where they work (one of my
brothers did it even longer distance, for a few years, where he worked
in an arab country, with six weeks on, six weeks off, or six months
on, six months off, or something like that, and his home was in a
state within Australia), FIFO also means Fly In Fly Out.

Too many acronyms, too few brain cells to process them - and, too many
acronyms that are the same, that represent different expansions.
--
Bret Busby
Armadale
West Australia
..............

"So once you do know what the question actually is,
you'll know what the answer means."
- Deep Thought,
Chapter 28 of Book 1 of
"The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy:
A Trilogy In Four Parts",
written by Douglas Adams,
published by Pan Books, 1992

....................................................
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Gene Heskett
2015-04-13 17:30:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Petter Adsen
On Mon, 13 Apr 2015 12:29:48 -0400
Post by Gene Heskett
Post by Henrique de Moraes Holschuh
Sometimes it will also be necessary to remove the backup
(RTC/CMOS) battery. In that case you will likely have to leave
the box unpowered (do not reconnect any of the batteries or power)
for several hours (try at least 12 hours) AFTER you did the
power-button dance above, to actually reset everything.
What has become of the triplet of header pins on the motherboard
that used to do that. Simply move the flea clip to the other end
pair and count to 10, put it back where you found it. In the normal
position the cmos battery is connected. In the other position the
battery is not only disconnected, but the battery input to the cmos
is forceably grounded, defeating the timing forced on you by any
energy storage capacitor that may also be present in the circuit.
Do they not put that on the newer motherboards?
I don't know, my newest motherboard is 3-4 years old, and while it is
thankfully not new enough to have UEFI, it does have these pins.
Clearly mentioned in the manual, too.
Post by Gene Heskett
IMO no board without that should ever be considered for purchase.
YMMV of course...
Amen. But the OP's machine is a laptop, and the owner had difficulty
with removing the battery without the user manual. Disregarding
whether or not he should even attempt this at all, it would involve
opening his still-under-warranty machine to such a degree that it
would now become a no-longer-under-warranty machine :)
So whether or not the pins are there is not really that important in
this setting, I would think. But I totally agree with you :)
I apparently did not consider that aspect Petter, and you are of coarse
correct. A side remark is related to the tools used to open it and
service it. My laptop was opened to replace a dead dvd writer while it
was still in warranty, (and the tried to wiggle out of it when they
found it booted mandrake linux at the time) and the only cure for the
torn up screws his worn out dime store tools tore up, is a full set of
new screws. Knowing he would, I had brought my own precisely made set of
small phillips screwdrivers along, and the tech refused to use them.
Had he been my employee, he would have learned how to do that work
properly, or would have been fired on the spot. The old saying that his
hands did not fit the tools was never more true. But he wasn't working
for me, he was working for Circuit City.

In that event, I would simply ask that the warranty be honored, or the
machine be replace in a timely manner ( 2 weeks is IMO hugely excessive
unless it has to be ordered and shipped.) and I might remark in passing
that I was friends with the local County Attorney. In our small county
community of <10,000, that is not only an excellent chance of being the
truth, and in this case she also knows I voted for her. I have found it
helpfull to "know someone" now and then. ;-)
Post by Petter Adsen
Post by Gene Heskett
In any event, the above certainly generates a sequence of questions
to be asked of the peddler of any new board one might buy, questions
that if the sales driod cannot readily answer or quickly find
someone who does have the answer, would make me look for a peddler
who is knowledgeable enough to answer with sensible, truthful
answers.
I am also a little wary of his statement that it took them two _weeks_
to examine a machine he delivered to them for service. Where I live, a
small place in Norway, the people I use will normally do things within
a few hours. And it's not like they have lots of competition, either.
Maybe I'm just spoiled & lucky, though.
Petter
Both Petter, fits me too although my luck has been phenominal on both
sides of the mean from time to time.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>
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Joe
2015-04-10 18:10:03 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 10 Apr 2015 17:25:14 +0800
Post by Bret Busby
So, I have found xfce, on Debian 7, to be too dangerous.
Even more incentive to stick with Debian 6, even after the LTS has expired.
It seems that, on the eve of the release of Debian 8, Debian 7 is
still, even less stable and functional, than Debian 6.
My splash screen before Xfce starts up displays 'Debian 8'. It isn't
really, of course, it's Sid, but it probably still contains a lot of
Debian 8, with a dash of Debian 9 and possibly even hints of 10. I've
been running Xfce for well over a year, and have had no screensaver
trouble, though it would have been configured when Sid was largely
Lenny, or possibly Squeeze. In short, I think your problem is local,
not global.

There's no doubt that Wheezy has needed a lot more maintenance than
Squeeze did, on pretty much the same software set. Presumably the
trend will continue, following the increase in complexity with time.
--
Joe
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David Wright
2015-04-13 02:20:01 UTC
Permalink
Me again, sorry. My question about the hardware failure was more out
of curiosity than anything else, because it's unusual for software
problems to break hardware (though quite possible). On to software...
Post by Bret Busby
So, I have found xfce, on Debian 7, to be too dangerous.
Even more incentive to stick with Debian 6, even after the LTS has expired.
It seems that, on the eve of the release of Debian 8, Debian 7 is
still, even less stable and functional, than Debian 6.
When you've run D6 and D7, has it been on the same machine? What's the
basic configuration of your system; did you install D7 over D6, or are
they in separate partitions so you can try running either one and then
the other? Do you have a separate /home partition or any others like
that? And lastly, just out of interest, I don't recall your saying
whether you have tried installing and running D8 yet.

Cheers,
David.
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Bret Busby
2015-04-13 03:50:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Wright
Me again, sorry. My question about the hardware failure was more out
of curiosity than anything else, because it's unusual for software
problems to break hardware (though quite possible). On to software...
Post by Bret Busby
So, I have found xfce, on Debian 7, to be too dangerous.
Even more incentive to stick with Debian 6, even after the LTS has expired.
It seems that, on the eve of the release of Debian 8, Debian 7 is
still, even less stable and functional, than Debian 6.
When you've run D6 and D7, has it been on the same machine? What's the
basic configuration of your system; did you install D7 over D6, or are
they in separate partitions so you can try running either one and then
the other? Do you have a separate /home partition or any others like
that? And lastly, just out of interest, I don't recall your saying
whether you have tried installing and running D8 yet.
Cheers,
David.
Hello.

No, I have not tried to run Debian 6 and 7 on the same machine, and, I
have not installed Debian 7 over Debian 6.

I have Debian 6 running on a Dell desktop, and installed and
operational on an earlier model Acer laptop with an nVidia GT520M
graphics adaptor, and that installation of Debian 6, on the laptop,
runs the external monitor, without any problem.

However, due to running out of memory on the desktop (which has an i3
CPU, and which I had upgraded to 16GB RAM, as the maximum installable
RAM), which is the computer that I use most, as, as previously
mentioned, due to the memory swapping mostly not working (it starts to
swap, when memory usage reaches about 100%, and memory usage then
stays at 100%, and, at present, swap space usage is 36%, with memory
usage at 100%), and the CPU load gets quite high (currently showing
89%), I bought a super-duper laptop; the Acer v3-772G, with its i7 CPU
and 16GB of RAM, which I had upgraded to 32GB, and, being UEFI/GPT (I
had also wanted to use the UEFI/GPT, to be able to install PC-BSD,
but, as previously mentioned, installing the version of PC-BSD, that
would supposedly install and run on a UEFI/GPT system, was a big, bad,
mistake, as that wreaked havoc on the system), and, as I had
understood that Debian 7 was needed (rather than Debian 6) to deal
with the UEFI/GPT system, and, as Debian 6 is also problematic (apart
from the failure to properly swap memory) with transfering data in
quantities greater than about 1GB, I installed Debian 7 on the
computer (and then, when Debian 7 would not get the external monitor
working, I installed, also, Ubuntu 14.04, which did get the external
monitor working). The GUI's on the Debian 7 installation, and the
Ubuntu installation, being standard GNOME 3, werecrap and diffiocult
to use, and, then, by accident, I found that Debian 7 had also GNOME
Classic, which I could invoke, when logging in (I had found,
initially, reference to GNOME Classic,i n the PC-BSD manual), and, I
had installed LXDE and XFCE on the Acer V3-772G computer, but, found
them wanting, when I had tried them. So, I now use GNOME Classic, as
the least unusable interface, on the Acer V3-772G Debian 7
installation.

As Debian 7, running on the super-duper computer, will not find or run
the external monitor, because Debian 7 won't droive the nVIDIA
graphics adaptor, I bought the Acer E5-521-238Q, which has only an
inboard graphics adaptor, as I presumed (unsafe act, apparently, with
Debian) that Debian 7 would be adble to drive that graphics adaptor.
Wrong.

As I have stated elsewhere, MS Windows 8.x, and Ubuntu 14.04.2 LTS,
run on both of the newer Acer computers, upon which Debian 7 is
installed, and, they both drive the respective graphics adaptors, and,
run the external monitor, and, MS Win7 and Ubuntu 12.04 LTS and Debian
6 run on the Acer 5750G with the nVIDIA GT520M graphics adaptor, and
drive that graphics adaptor and run the external monitor, okay, but
Debian 7 can not run the external graphics adaptor, and whilst the
Acer V3-772G, has a 17 inch scrteen, it is noe of these widescreen
<expletive deleted> things, and, is not a 17 inch proper screen, witha
4:3 aspect ratio, like the Acer 1711, and so these current laptops,
need an external monitor, such as the 23 inch widescreen monitor, to
give a decent sized display.

But, I have been unable to get Debian 7, to run the external monitor,
and, that, in itself, is frustrating, apart from all of the other
problems with Debian 7.

But, the GNOME Classic interface, is inconsistent - on the Acer
V3-772G installation of Debian 7, to find the System Settings ->
Monitors, I have previously stated the menu path, and, as someone on
the list (Petter, I think), pointed out, on their installation, as on
my Acer E5-521-238Q Debian 7 installation, to access that, and, as I
have found, the screen lock (I have yet to find a usable screensaver
on Debian 7), is found, by clicking on the use name at the top right
corner of the screen (GNOME Classic, apparently, does not allow me to
repostition the panel (if that is the correct term) at the bottom of
the screen, directly above the taskbar (if that is the correct term,
as in Debian 6.

So, Debian has become increasingly less useable and reliable and
stable, as the version numbers increase.

So, while Debian 6 is yet to become stable, and has significant memory
handling and data handling problems, I doubt that I will upgrade to a
later version number, for my main usage, for years to come.

I would probably go back to Debian 3.1, which I regard as the last
stable version of Debian, but I doubt that it would handle the current
hardware and technology (such as ADSL).

I always have a separate /home partition, and, seaparate extra /data
partitions (/home is required, amongst other things, for storage of my
pine -> alpine mail data, and, I believe, various other appliucations
settings data and other data particular to the varioous other
applications).

I will not try Debian 8. Apart from other issues, insofar as I am
aware, it does not have GNOME Classic. If Debian 8 had GNOME 2, I
might try it, but, as I have said, as the version numbers increase,
the usability, reliability, and, stability, appear to decrease.

I lost over a month of usage of my super-duper computer, when I tried
to install PC-BSD 10.1.1, (before I found how to get the computer
working again), and I have not yet been able to get Debian 7 working
adequately, and so I am now wary of trying any new version of Debian,
at least untiul the previous versions, become stable.
--
Bret Busby
Armadale
West Australia
..............

"So once you do know what the question actually is,
you'll know what the answer means."
- Deep Thought,
Chapter 28 of Book 1 of
"The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy:
A Trilogy In Four Parts",
written by Douglas Adams,
published by Pan Books, 1992

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Bret Busby
2015-04-13 05:10:02 UTC
Permalink
On 13/04/2015, David Wright <***@lionunicorn.co.uk> wrote:

<snip>
Post by David Wright
And lastly, just out of interest, I don't recall your saying
whether you have tried installing and running D8 yet.
Apart from not having GNOME Classic, I note that Debian 8, as with
Debian 7, appears to be missing iceape.

I do not remember how, but, from memory, I have iceape installed on
Debian 7 on the Acer V3-772G, bit it is now, apparently, not available
for installation on Debian 7, on the Acer E5-521-238Q.

So, without GNOME Classic (or GNOME2, which would be better), and,
without iceape, I have no inclination to install Debian 8.
--
Bret Busby
Armadale
West Australia
..............

"So once you do know what the question actually is,
you'll know what the answer means."
- Deep Thought,
Chapter 28 of Book 1 of
"The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy:
A Trilogy In Four Parts",
written by Douglas Adams,
published by Pan Books, 1992

....................................................
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Bret Busby
2015-04-13 05:50:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bret Busby
<snip>
Post by David Wright
And lastly, just out of interest, I don't recall your saying
whether you have tried installing and running D8 yet.
Apart from not having GNOME Classic, I note that Debian 8, as with
Debian 7, appears to be missing iceape.
I do not remember how, but, from memory, I have iceape installed on
Debian 7 on the Acer V3-772G, bit it is now, apparently, not available
for installation on Debian 7, on the Acer E5-521-238Q.
So, without GNOME Classic (or GNOME2, which would be better), and,
without iceape, I have no inclination to install Debian 8.
And then I remember that it is not iceape, that I have installed on
the Acer V3-772G, but seamonkey, beacuse we now have to install
seamonkey, if we want the functionality of iceape.

But, seamonkey is not available as a .deb package, for installation
and updating.

It is available only as a .tar.bz2 file, for installation on Linux.

So, it has to be downloaded as the compressed file, installed, and
connected to a menu, so as to be able to use it.

Andl, the instructions have to be followed.

And, following the instructions, does not work.

So, getting the application to being able to run it, takes days,
instead of minutes, with trying to sort out how to get it to work, if
we have the time to lose, to try to get it to work.

And, we are now returned to the ease of use (difficulty), that we had
with slackware, from the time of Red Hat 4, and, without the
functionality that was available in Debian 3 and 3.1, as we have lost
the functionality of package management.

Sometimes, unfortunately, we are forced to admit defeat.

Installing software, and getting it to be able to be used, simply is
made too difficult.

No, I have no intention of installing Debian 8.

Life is already difficult enough, without making it worse.

I think I will just stick with Debian 6, with its shortcomings, and
probably also give up on Debian 7, as also too difficult, and as too
unusable.
--
Bret Busby
Armadale
West Australia
..............

"So once you do know what the question actually is,
you'll know what the answer means."
- Deep Thought,
Chapter 28 of Book 1 of
"The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy:
A Trilogy In Four Parts",
written by Douglas Adams,
published by Pan Books, 1992

....................................................
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Ric Moore
2015-04-13 18:10:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Reco
Hi.
On Sat, 11 Apr 2015 16:00:11 -0400
Post by Ric Moore
Post by Reco
dpkg-reconfigure -plow keyboard-configuration
update-rc.d: warning: start and stop actions are no longer supported;
falling back to defaults
update-rc.d: warning: start and stop actions are no longer supported;
falling back to defaults
Err... does that mean nothing happened?
Yes and no. Yes, because dpkg-reconfigure did not ask you any questions
(and with priority=low it should ask you at least some).
No, because debconf was run.
Unless you provide an output of 'strace -f dpkg-reconfigure -plow
keyboard-configuration' - that will remain a mystery.
Post by Ric Moore
Is there a single file tucked away someplace with the keyboard layout?
Using XFCE desktop on Jessie with systemd enabled.
- some 'accessibility options' enabled (meaning - some application
'helpfully' stealing your Shift, Ctrl or Alt keypresses)
- overridden keyboard layout switch by means of XFCE
(xfce4-xkb-plugin)
- binded Ctrl keypresses for some hotkey (gtk-can-change-accels)
- using ibus (or some other Input Method™)
- used some systemd helper to override /etc/default/keyboard (localectl)
Basically, the more software you have installed - the more
possibilities you have the things to go haywire.
Post by Ric Moore
I was playing warzone2100 and got finger fumbled setting a group of
trucks to group 5, (using ctrl 5).
So, long story short - you have misbehaving Ctrl key (possibly others
too) in any SDL1 application. Took 5 minutes (and several roundtrips
from their git to their wiki) to figure the dependencies of this
'warzone2100', and did I mention how I hate it when upstream tries their
best to hide dependencies?
Try replacing xfwm4 (aka stock XFCE4 window manager) with something
else, say, openbox. See how it goes then.
I did just that per your suggestion. Warzone2100 STILL does it. But,
if I boot Ubuntu on another drive on the same machine, no problem.
You're an changing an awful lot with that reboot. Starting with systemd
→ upstart for example.
So, I dinked something up pecurliar to Debian/XCFE. Again, all three
versions of Warzone I jhave installed each has it's own dot config
---------------------
# KEYBOARD CONFIGURATION FILE
# Consult the keyboard(5) manual page.
XKBMODEL="pc104"
XKBLAYOUT="us"
XKBVARIANT=""
XKBOPTIONS="terminate:ctrl_alt_bksp"
BACKSPACE="guess"
----------------------
Nothing strange there.
Indeed. The usual run-of-the-mill single-layout preferences.
I dug through all of the .config directories
and found nothing glaring. So, I created a new user and the same
thing happens. Ergo, it is system wide??
Did you check /etc/xdg?

If there's nothing fishy in there too - I'm out of ideas, sorry.

Reco
--
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
"There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
http://linuxcounter.net/user/44256.html
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