info is not dead

[songbird]

i run debian testing most of the time with bits of
unstable (firefox).

once in a while i want more detail than man pages
supply and so i reach for info pages instead.

if you've never explored info pages in general
you can just start with the command "info".

this is just a tidbit for those who wander once in
a while into strange realms... :)


songbird

[Nate Bargmann]

Post by songbird
i run debian testing most of the time with bits of
unstable (firefox).
once in a while i want more detail than man pages
supply and so i reach for info pages instead.
if you've never explored info pages in general
you can just start with the command "info".
this is just a tidbit for those who wander once in
a while into strange realms... :)

The GNU info documentation is really intended to be read in Emacs where
some nice formatting is done in the GUI Emacs version. The stand alone
GNU info browser is rather obtuse. I found a much better option to be
the independent pinfo (Debian package of the same name) browser which
provides navigation up and down through the document using Lynx style
key bindings. If pinfo doesn't find an info document it will open a man
page when one is available.

- Nate

[Oliver Schode]

where some nice formatting is done in the GUI Emacs version. The
stand alone GNU info browser is rather obtuse. I found a much better
option to be the independent pinfo (Debian package of the same name)
browser which provides navigation up and down through the document
using Lynx style key bindings. If pinfo doesn't find an info document
it will open a man page when one is available.

I'll just second that, haven't had GNU info installed on any system in
the last 15 years. Never grew comfortable with it, it's about twice the
size of pinfo, with the latter being rather idiosyncratic in its own
ways and a little buggy. Surely it never was supposed to do more than
fill this gap, and as far as I know this is all there is, if you don't
feel like using a clunky Tk GUI. Well actually, vim can do it too, a
simple plugin is included in Debian's vim-scripts package already, but
as I recollect you'd still need default info, that's what made me go
for pinfo once.

To be honest I'm not happy with the info format still being around,
precisely because sometimes man pages don't cut it, and we should have
something better by now. On the other hand, and I'll make no bones
about it, so called chatbots turned out to be extremely useful
(overused) for me in that respect and are now doing enough of the job
for about 80% of the time. You just can't beat that for speed or
convenience, and when is there no internet connection.

Regards,
Oliver

[Nate Bargmann]

Post by Oliver Schode
To be honest I'm not happy with the info format still being around,
precisely because sometimes man pages don't cut it, and we should have
something better by now. On the other hand, and I'll make no bones
about it, so called chatbots turned out to be extremely useful
(overused) for me in that respect and are now doing enough of the job
for about 80% of the time. You just can't beat that for speed or
convenience, and when is there no internet connection.

The info format is generated from a source document format GNU calls
texinfo that is a subset (superset?) of Tex. The info files are just
one of several formats that can be generated from the Texinfo source.
Other popular formats are HTML, Post Script, and PDF. Sometimes these
latter formats are included in a *-doc package of GNU software and
sometimes not. All are usually available from the related GNU Web site.
I typically will search for an HTML version of a GNU manual. The only
problem is that what is found online are the latest versions and Debian
Stable packages may be a version or two behind.

Texinfo is from a time when GNU documentation was only man pages or flat
text files and something "better" was desired for moving through a
manual in what is now known as a hypertext format. It also includes a
lot of semantic markup rather than the basics forms of emphasis included
in HTML. It is actually a rather capable format it's just that the info
format and the info utility intended for terminal display throw nearly
all of that away.

- Nate

[Jaap van Wingerde]

Post by Nate Bargmann
I typically will search for an HTML version of a GNU manual. The only
problem is that what is found online are the latest versions and Debian
Stable packages may be a version or two behind.

It's a pity that besides 'manpages.debian.org', 'infopages.debian.org' doesn't exist.

[David]

Post by Jaap van Wingerde

I typically will search for an HTML version of a GNU manual.  The
only
problem is that what is found online are the latest versions and Debian
Stable packages may be a version or two behind.

It's a pity that besides 'manpages.debian.org',
'infopages.debian.org' doesn't exist.

I find pinfo works just fine for my purposes.
It handles links, and info files have far more information to them than
the often cryptic man pages.
Cheers!

[Max Nikulin]

Post by Nate Bargmann
Texinfo is from a time when GNU documentation was only man pages or flat
text files and something "better" was desired for moving through a
manual in what is now known as a hypertext format. It also includes a
lot of semantic markup rather than the basics forms of emphasis included
in HTML. It is actually a rather capable format it's just that the info
format and the info utility intended for terminal display throw nearly
all of that away.

Certainly viewers for texinfo docs have usability issues. tkinfo or
emacs are more friendly than the info(1) "browser".

On the other hand, texinfo is, unlike man, is hypertext to much more
degree. Heuristic in debiman (manpages.debian.org) is better than in
other tools in respect to guessing what part of text should be rendered
as links, but it is still limited.

There is no convention concerning "active" links to specific anchor in a
man page and it is an issue in the case of long manuals. I think, e.g.
Emacs manual would be unusable as a man page.

There are issues with cross-document texinfo links. Desktop environments
provide help tools that may render info docs, but "(bash) Bash
Variables" would not work there and "copy link" may be missed. I would
like to have something like sphinx index files that contains list of
anchors in documents.

Texinfo semantic markup is really a feature. Full support is not trivial
though since images and equations are allowed. It is an obstacle on the
way toward better tools.

I do not mind to have info.debian.org. However single page variant leads
to excessively large documents. Existing tools have no intermediate
level, the only other supported mode is an HTML page per texinfo node.
It is inconvenient to walk through many single paragraph or menu only
pages. Search in whole document is another issue with granular texinfo
documents published on web sites.

Something more advanced than man pages is necessary, but texinfo is not
unambiguously better in its current form.

P.S. The following is from "emacs --help". From my point of view there
are too many steps to reach specific mode to call it convenient. It is
for Emacs that may be named a native tool to read info docs.

Post by Nate Bargmann
Run M-x info RET m emacs RET m emacs invocation RET inside Emacs to
read the main documentation for these command-line arguments.

[Vincent Lefevre]

Post by Nate Bargmann
The GNU info documentation is really intended to be read in Emacs where
some nice formatting is done in the GUI Emacs version. The stand alone
GNU info browser is rather obtuse. I found a much better option to be
the independent pinfo (Debian package of the same name) browser which
provides navigation up and down through the document using Lynx style
key bindings. If pinfo doesn't find an info document it will open a man
page when one is available.

But for searching, how can one get the previous match with pinfo?
(info has { and } to navigate through the matches, Lynx has n and N,
but what about pinfo?)

[David Wright]

Post by Vincent Lefevre

Post by Nate Bargmann
The GNU info documentation is really intended to be read in Emacs where
some nice formatting is done in the GUI Emacs version. The stand alone
GNU info browser is rather obtuse. I found a much better option to be
the independent pinfo (Debian package of the same name) browser which
provides navigation up and down through the document using Lynx style
key bindings. If pinfo doesn't find an info document it will open a man
page when one is available.

But for searching, how can one get the previous match with pinfo?
(info has { and } to navigate through the matches, Lynx has n and N,
but what about pinfo?)

I think you define KEY_SEARCH_AGAIN_1 to whichever keystroke you want.
(AIUI it has no default already defined in /etc/.pinforc)

Cheers,
David.

[Vincent Lefevre]

Post by David Wright

Post by Vincent Lefevre

Post by Nate Bargmann
The GNU info documentation is really intended to be read in Emacs where
some nice formatting is done in the GUI Emacs version. The stand alone
GNU info browser is rather obtuse. I found a much better option to be
the independent pinfo (Debian package of the same name) browser which
provides navigation up and down through the document using Lynx style
key bindings. If pinfo doesn't find an info document it will open a man
page when one is available.

But for searching, how can one get the previous match with pinfo?
(info has { and } to navigate through the matches, Lynx has n and N,
but what about pinfo?)

I think you define KEY_SEARCH_AGAIN_1 to whichever keystroke you want.
(AIUI it has no default already defined in /etc/.pinforc)

KEY_SEARCH_AGAIN_1 gives the *next* match, not the previous one.

[David Wright]

Post by Vincent Lefevre

Post by David Wright

Post by Vincent Lefevre

Post by Nate Bargmann
The GNU info documentation is really intended to be read in Emacs where
some nice formatting is done in the GUI Emacs version. The stand alone
GNU info browser is rather obtuse. I found a much better option to be
the independent pinfo (Debian package of the same name) browser which
provides navigation up and down through the document using Lynx style
key bindings. If pinfo doesn't find an info document it will open a man
page when one is available.

But for searching, how can one get the previous match with pinfo?
(info has { and } to navigate through the matches, Lynx has n and N,
but what about pinfo?)

I think you define KEY_SEARCH_AGAIN_1 to whichever keystroke you want.
(AIUI it has no default already defined in /etc/.pinforc)

KEY_SEARCH_AGAIN_1 gives the *next* match, not the previous one.

Sorry, yes, I think it helps to be able to subconciously count (but
avoid being afflicted by OCD), and press Home and n-1 SearchAgains.
(Even more tedious than searching backwards and forwards in xpdf,
where you have to toggle a button.)

Wishlist bug?

Cheers,
David.

[Vincent Lefevre]

Post by David Wright

Post by Vincent Lefevre

Post by David Wright

Post by Vincent Lefevre
But for searching, how can one get the previous match with pinfo?
(info has { and } to navigate through the matches, Lynx has n and N,
but what about pinfo?)

I think you define KEY_SEARCH_AGAIN_1 to whichever keystroke you want.
(AIUI it has no default already defined in /etc/.pinforc)

KEY_SEARCH_AGAIN_1 gives the *next* match, not the previous one.

Sorry, yes, I think it helps to be able to subconciously count (but
avoid being afflicted by OCD), and press Home and n-1 SearchAgains.
(Even more tedious than searching backwards and forwards in xpdf,
where you have to toggle a button.)
Wishlist bug?

There's one upstream: https://github.com/baszoetekouw/pinfo/issues/22
(but no activity in the repository for the last 3 years).

[mick.crane]

Post by songbird
i run debian testing most of the time with bits of
unstable (firefox).
once in a while i want more detail than man pages
supply and so i reach for info pages instead.
if you've never explored info pages in general
you can just start with the command "info".
this is just a tidbit for those who wander once in
a while into strange realms... :)

apropos is sometimes handy if you can't remember what a thing is called
mick

[Nate Bargmann]

Post by mick.crane

Post by songbird
i run debian testing most of the time with bits of
unstable (firefox).
once in a while i want more detail than man pages
supply and so i reach for info pages instead.
if you've never explored info pages in general
you can just start with the command "info".
this is just a tidbit for those who wander once in
a while into strange realms... :)

apropos is sometimes handy if you can't remember what a thing is called

apropos searches a database constructed from the NAME section of manual
pages and returns results only from text in that section and only from
manual pages. It is independent of info documents. An index (the 'dir'
page) of info documents may be seen by running either info or pinfo
without commandline arguments or from within Emacs.

- Nate