Installing current i386 Debian on OLD syst W/O CD/DVD drive

Discussion:

(too old to reply)

Richard Owlett

2024-08-01 12:50:01 UTC

I have an elderly Sony laptop and a more ancient desktop with unknown
motherboard happily running i386 Debian 9.0. As far as I can tell the
BIOS of neither machine supports booting from a flash drive. Neither has
functional CD/DVD drive. Both hard drives have copious free space.

Both machines have internet access.
Though this machine is 64Bit capable and bootable from flash, it does
not have adequate free space for an additional OS.

Are there documented install instructions covering machines described in
first paragraph?

TIA

George at Clug

2024-08-01 13:30:01 UTC

Permalink

Richard,

Are both of your computers (laptop and desktop) 64 bit capable?Â Â Not
that this matters too much to my below suggestion.

This might help you if you can remove the drives from the laptop
and/or desktop.Â

I often take a drive out of a computer, then put the drive into a
computer that can boot from a installation DVD or can boot from a USB
install memory drive.Â

Then I install a my Debian installation selecting to install "all
drivers" and not just drivers for this computer.

After the installation, using "apt install [package]", I also
installÂ most free and non-free firmware (particularly video and
networking), then I put the drive back into the original computer, and
boot up.

(Note: Sometimes I have issues with Nvidia graphic's cards, and after
booting up I have to press Alt-F2 to log in as root and then run any
commands to specifically install or uninstall video drivers)

After booting up, I run:
# update-initramfs -u # update-grub
And reboot again.

This process may not always work, but in most cases it has helped me
out.

George.

Post by Richard Owlett
I have an elderly Sony laptop and a more ancient desktop with

unknown

Post by Richard Owlett
motherboard happily running i386 Debian 9.0. As far as I can tell

the

Post by Richard Owlett
BIOS of neither machine supports booting from a flash drive. Neither

has

Post by Richard Owlett
functional CD/DVD drive. Both hard drives have copious free space.
Both machines have internet access.
Though this machine is 64Bit capable and bootable from flash, it

does

Post by Richard Owlett
not have adequate free space for an additional OS.
Are there documented install instructions covering machines

described in

Post by Richard Owlett
first paragraph?
TIA

Andy Smith

2024-08-01 13:30:02 UTC

Permalink

Hi,

I would shrink the partition and then use debootstrap to install
Debian in new partition in the available space, from the running
Debian 9.

Since you say it has a 64-bit capable CPU I'd make sure to install
amd64 though, as i686 Debian probably only has one more release
where it's available for booting, maybe not even that.

https://wiki.debian.org/Debootstrap

If the partition juggling here is too tricky, maybe you could:

- take a drive out of one of them and put it into the other

- debootstrap onto that new drive from the other's running Debian 9

- Remove the drive and put it back in the computer it came from,
where it now boots Debian 12

- Once you're satisfied it's working, remove drive from the
remaining old machine and do it all over again.

Even though you say your machines can't boot from USB and have no
optical drive, it seems likely that there would be a place inside
them to attach another SATA drive which the Debian 9 would then see
without any difficulty.

Thanks,
Andy

--
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

Anssi Saari

2024-08-01 13:40:01 UTC

Permalink

Post by Richard Owlett
I have an elderly Sony laptop and a more ancient desktop with unknown
motherboard happily running i386 Debian 9.0. As far as I can tell the
BIOS of neither machine supports booting from a flash drive. Neither
has functional CD/DVD drive. Both hard drives have copious free space.
Both machines have internet access.
Though this machine is 64Bit capable and bootable from flash, it does
not have adequate free space for an additional OS.

Maybe fix that space issue then?

Post by Richard Owlett
Are there documented install instructions covering machines described
in first paragraph?

See https://www.debian.org/releases/stable/i386/ch04s04.en.html for booting
the installer from a hard disk.

Come to think of it, grub supports booting ISO images and to make it
easy, you could install grml-rescueboot and boot a grml image and use
grml-debootstrap to install Debian.

Andy Smith

2024-08-01 13:40:01 UTC

Permalink

Hi,

i recommend installing from netinstall iso image using the
hd-media files to boot the installer using grub stanza (or
manually). Description in the manual is a bit short, but you can
ask me, if you need.

Oh yes, great suggestion! I should have thought of just downloading
an installer and booting it from existing install's grub.

Thanks,
Andy

--
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

Richard Owlett

2024-08-01 15:40:02 UTC

Permalink

Post by Andy Smith
Hi,

Oh yes, great suggestion! I should have thought of just downloading
an installer and booting it from existing install's grub.

I was hoping I could somehow tell grub to run an installer's ISO image.
I think the posted links will lead me adequately.

In the phrase "to boot the installer using grub stanza (or manually)",
just what does "(or manually)" refer to?

Thanks.

Richard Owlett

2024-08-01 19:20:01 UTC

Permalink

Post by Richard Owlett
In the phrase "to boot the installer using grub stanza (or manually)",
just what does "(or manually)" refer to?

I am using all of the options listed below depending on circumstances.
If you are clear about using your hd to store an installer iso, and you
1. use grub commandline (pressing c during grub menu) and enter all the
commands by hand. (possible to ask grub questions interactively,
autocomplete filemanes, aso, but needs some familiarity with its language)
2. compose the stanza manually (using the internet and your own knowing)
and introduce it temporarily into /boot/grub/grub.cfg (where it will be
overwritten by update-grub some day)
3 permanently teach grub to add the stanza, which may even be
dynamically coded, if you want, by creating/modifying a file in
/etc/grub.d (but who wants to install several times on the same
machine?). I did permanantly add a live iso for emergency booting a
whacky system.
manually refers to 1.
was that clear enough for you?
i would expect to use 32bit installer and image files, but it is
necessary to be certain about the partitioning format (gpt or mbr) in
order to give grub the correct hints.

I've never had occasion to use Grub's command line. Good time to learn.
The existing install is so old it has Grub 1.??? rather than 2.??? .
Should that make any practical difference to manual install?

Not sure about gpt vs mbr. I have whatever Gparted defaults to when
creating new partitions. I have no longer required partitions available.

Wont have time available until tomorrow or Saturday to do the install.

Thanks.

Richard Owlett

2024-08-01 20:20:01 UTC

Permalink

Post by Richard Owlett
I've never had occasion to use Grub's command line. Good time to learn.
The existing install is so old it has Grub 1.??? rather than 2.??? .
Should that make any practical difference to manual install?
Not sure about gpt vs mbr. I have whatever Gparted defaults to when
creating new partitions. I have no longer required partitions available.

Oh, grub-pc (a.k.a. grub1)?
I gotta confess: when i did join linux, there was grub1.98 already
available and for reasons outside this scope, i went for it.
i mean: i really have no idea about grub 1. Better ask someone else to
fill in.
gpt is much more flexible compared to the old mbr partitioning, but i do
not think, it would be necessary for you to change at this point. Just
check your scheme and use it, as you like. The merits of grub2 come
handy for a) large disks and b) uefi booting, both of which wont bother
you this weekend, right?
btw: to check, i would use

Post by Richard Owlett
sudo sgdisk -p /dev/sda # or whatever disk you want to see, this will only output information, not change anything.

Maybe pxe is an option? i never used it, and do not plan to do so
anytime soon.
however, have fun! ... this weekend :-)

I will *GRIN*
Part of why I'm involved in this is education.
The sgdisk man page links to some interesting looking material.
Someone had already raised pxe as a option which led to many links.
I suspect tomorrow will be a reading day ;}

Thanks all.

Richard Owlett

2024-08-02 11:30:01 UTC

Permalink

Post by Richard Owlett

[SNIP]

I should have turned on the machines in question.
They report "GNU GRUB version 2.02~beta3-5"
Seniors should "check first" before "opening mouth and ..." ;/

Post by Richard Owlett
Not sure about gpt vs mbr. I have whatever Gparted defaults to when
creating new partitions. I have no longer required partitions available.
Wont have time available until tomorrow or Saturday to do the install.
Thanks.

Łukasz Kalamłacki

2024-08-02 15:20:01 UTC

Permalink

Hi,

Could you give as more information about these systems on which you wish
to install Bookworm?

Newer distribution of Linux has a lot bigger resources consumption that
old one.

I would like to get:

RAM size, CPU type, HDD size.

Bookworm requirements are available here:

https://wiki.debian.org/DebianEdu/Documentation/Bookworm/Requirements

It may be the problem with RAM size.

I am also curious about destination of these computers, I am asking
because modern internet browsers take gigabytes of RAM.

Best regards,

Łukasz

Post by Richard Owlett

[SNIP]

I should have turned on the machines in question.
They report "GNU GRUB version 2.02~beta3-5"
Seniors should "check first" before "opening mouth and ..." ;/

Richard Owlett

2024-08-02 12:40:02 UTC

Permalink

Post by Richard Owlett
sudo sgdisk -p /dev/sda # or whatever disk you want to see, this will only output information, not change anything.

It reports:> ***************************************************************

Found invalid GPT and valid MBR; converting MBR to GPT format
in memory.
***************************************************************

All my machines, purchased new or used, came with some version of
Windows installed.

During initial installation of Debian Squeeze (or later) would I have
been explicitly asked to choose between MBR and GPT?

Maybe pxe is an option? i never used it, and do not plan to do so
anytime soon.
however, have fun! ... this weekend :-)

e***@gmx.us

2024-08-02 21:30:01 UTC

Permalink

If all you have is swap space or outdated crap, then back it up and do
whatever you like. GPT is no must, if the disk is below 2TB in size and
UEFI no option.

If you have >4 partitions, then except for booting and recalcitrant OS
installers, GPT is easier to deal with.

Caveat: I know next to nothing about GPT vs non-i686 architectures.

--
Hanlon's Razor: "Never attribute to malice that which can be
adequately explained by stupidity." Derived from Robert Heinlein

Anssi Saari

2024-08-02 16:50:01 UTC

Permalink

Post by Richard Owlett
I was hoping I could somehow tell grub to run an installer's ISO image.
I think the posted links will lead me adequately.

I have actually tried that. The ISO image needs a little special support
so that after the kernel has booted and initrd loaded, it needs to be
able to find the ISO again. Last time I tried this with Debian the
support wasn't there which is why I recommended the documented HD
install or using the GRML image which does support that.

Łukasz Kalamłacki

2024-08-02 17:40:02 UTC

Permalink

If you need to boot initrd without iso you an try this:

https://deb.debian.org/debian/dists/bookworm/main/installer-i386/current/images/netboot/debian-installer/i386/initrd.gz

https://deb.debian.org/debian/dists/bookworm/main/installer-i386/current/images/netboot/debian-installer/i386/linux

Post by Anssi Saari

Post by Richard Owlett
I was hoping I could somehow tell grub to run an installer's ISO image.
I think the posted links will lead me adequately.

yep, i know, same experience here, but ...
... with the most current files, it did work, repeated it several times
- albeit on x64, i have no i386 anymore, if i had more time, i'd check
in a vm. ;-)
btw: starting the installer in expert mode (priority=low), it even asks
for the drives to scan for iso files.

Richard Owlett

2024-08-01 15:30:01 UTC

Permalink

Both machines have 32bit only hardware.

Post by Richard Owlett
Both machines have internet access.
Though this machine is 64Bit capable

I.E. has a 64bit processor capable of running 32bit software.
It currently runs i386 Debian 9.13 .

Post by Richard Owlett
and bootable from flash, it does not have adequate free space for an additional OS.

No sane person messes with OPERABLE system unless ABSOLUTELY *REQUIRED*!
I date from era of 12AX7s and routine IO devices were 026s and KSR35s.
Have been using Debian since Squeeze.
At 80+ I've learned to ask first when in doubt ;}!

Post by Richard Owlett
Are there documented install instructions covering machines described in
first paragraph?
TIA

Andy Smith

2024-08-01 15:40:02 UTC

Permalink

Hi,

Post by Richard Owlett

Both machines have 32bit only hardware.

Which part of the hardware is 32-bit only? You said the CPUs support
64-bit, and that's normally all that matters.

Post by Richard Owlett

Post by Richard Owlett
and bootable from flash, it does not have adequate free space for an additional OS.

No sane person messes with OPERABLE system unless ABSOLUTELY *REQUIRED*!

Why are you asking about upgrading it if you don't want to mess with
the currently-installed system?

Thanks,
Andy

--
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

Łukasz Kalamłacki

2024-08-01 16:30:02 UTC

Permalink

Hi,

15 years ago I had a laptop with broken CD drive but with integrated
working ethernet NIC and bios supported PXE boot, so I configured
isc-dhcp-server in my network which provides pxelinux.0 bootloader and
address of tftp server.

On tftp server I uploaded pxeboot images from Debian. All I had to do
was to unzip netinstaller from Debian repositories and that it

If in your computer NIC is integrated in motherboard I bet it supports
PXE boot.

I installed also Debian on Pentium II machine without without NIC
integrated bout I bought 3com nic for 1USD with PXE bootloader and was
able to install Debian without CD or USB flash

You can have a look https://wiki.debian.org/PXEBootInstall

Best regards,

Łukasz

Łukasz Kalamłacki

2024-08-01 16:40:01 UTC

Permalink

Hi,

on tftp server you need to unpack this:

https://deb.debian.org/debian/dists/bookworm/main/installer-i386/current/images/netboot/netboot.tar.gz

to install i386 bookworm via PXEBoot.

Best regards,

Łukasz

Łukasz Kalamłacki

2024-08-01 19:10:02 UTC

Permalink

Hi,

This can be helpful :

Best,

Łukasz

Thomas Schmitt

2024-08-01 20:30:01 UTC

Permalink

Hi,

Post by Richard Owlett
The existing install is so old it has Grub 1.??? rather than 2.??? .

Oh, grub-pc (a.k.a. grub1)?

grub-pc is GRUB2 for Legacy PC-BIOS on x86.

I gotta confess: when i did join linux, there was grub1.98

Version 1.98, too, is already GRUB2.
https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/grub-devel/2010-03/msg00017.html

According to
https://www.gnu.org/software/grub/manual/grub/html_node/History.html
the last release of ye olde GRUB was 0.97 in 2005.

Old GRUB had its configuration in a file named menu.lst:
https://www.gnu.org/software/grub/manual/legacy/Configuration.html
GRUB2 has the root of its configuration empire in grub.cfg:
https://www.gnu.org/software/grub/manual/grub/html_node/Configuration.html#Configuration

Have a nice day :)

Thomas